Knowing for sure one is going to heaven

[phat8594]

This would appear to say that in effect, only those who were truly in Christ persevered. (And I have posted elsewhere that I personally find this to be the single most difficult verse for Arminianism.)

What in the text makes you think that this verse is dealing with perserverance?????

[RBerman]

What in the text makes you think that this verse is dealing with perserverance?????

We've discussed it previously, on the old board. Surely the prospect of a connection is not that much of a head-scratcher, even if you ultimately discount the connection.

[phat8594]

We've discussed it previously, on the old board. Surely the prospect of a connection is not that much of a head-scratcher, even if you ultimately discount the connection.

I am perfectly aware that many people use this verse as referendum on perserverance...and that people read it in light of particular theological ideas...but that doesn't make it any less of a head scratcher of what in context of 1 John makes people think that John is talking about perserverance or salvation.


Every 'verse' needs to be read in light of its surrounding context. And in the context of John 2, I am still confused at where John is referring to perserverance or even salvation...


IMO, this verse has more to do with those like Charles Taze Russell than it does with salvation.

[KingsGambit]

IMO, this verse has more to do with those like Charles Taze Russell than it does with salvation.

I agree with you that the immediate context does seem to refer more to these types of people (false teachers in general), but the reason I still see it as connected with perseverance in general is because John seems to link it to an initial state of belonging to Christ, and he (at least according to my attempt to read it at face value) seems to say this as a general statement and not merely limited to the context of false teachers.

[Obsidian]

For what it's worth:

@Bad Pig

James 2 is not talking about how to get to heaven, the subject of this thread. It is explicitly talking about how to be judged righteous by the law.

James 2
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Further, your concept that salvation is largely meaningless and insecure until it is complete (at death), is rebutted by the multitude of verses that declare eternal life a present possession, teach that we have already been glorified in the past-tense, teach that Christians are seated in heaven, teach that Christians will never hunger or thirst again after taking one serving of food/water, etc. Your view is incorrect.

@Sean

Matthew 24 is explicitly talking about being killed, hated, and deceived. It is not talking about getting to heaven either.

Matthew 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

@Remonstrant

1 Peter 1 does not state that we have to continue believing. It just says that faith is required (at some point). Your interpretation -- that we have to keep ourselves by continuing to believe -- would make the phrase "kept by the power of God" essentially meaningless.

Further, although it isn't needed to accept my theology (and none of the versions seems to translate it this way), I wonder if the word "faith" there might actually be referring to God's faithfulness.

@KingsGambit

So does this interpretation mean that God simply did not keep people who initially profess faith but walk away?

Good point.

[One Bad Pig]

It is a matter of, again, interpretation. Emphasis to be noted.

Did you read the rest of my post? I freely acknowledged that God works in us. However, that does not make the first verse of no import.

Salvation is a current possession. "For by grace you have been saved, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8.

Again, you seem to have missed the rest of my post. A fuller translation would be, "For by grace you are being saved/have been saved/will be saved. . ." (perfect tense). Salvation is not a point - it is a process.

NKJV And "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." v.10

And the works James gave an example of (Genesis 22:) took place years later after the cited promise (Genesis 15:6).

What does that have to do with how James is interpreted?

[One Bad Pig]

For what it's worth:

@Bad Pig

James 2 is not talking about how to get to heaven, the subject of this thread. It is explicitly talking about how to be judged righteous by the law.

The subjects are not unrelated, as you pretend.

James 2
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Source: James 2:14

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

© Copyright Original Source

The two passages are separated by a single verse.

Further, your concept that salvation is largely meaningless and insecure until it is complete (at death), is rebutted by the multitude of verses that declare eternal life a present possession, teach that we have already been glorified in the past-tense, teach that Christians are seated in heaven, teach that Christians will never hunger or thirst again after taking one serving of food/water, etc. Your view is incorrect.

I'm afraid you've misapprehended my view. I find it highly meaningful that I am being saved, and am secure in the knowledge that the adversary cannot take me from the Savior's hand. We probably disagree on how to interpret whatever verses you have in mind (the Samaritan woman certainly misinterpreted Jesus' statement when she first responded).

[Obsidian]

The subjects are not unrelated, as you pretend.

So now you admit that you believe we gain eternal life by law-keeping.

[The Remonstrant]

I must agree. The two choices are not mutually exclusive, and the issue of having eternal life (which is what the answers address) is different from the issue of knowing whether you have it (which is what the question asks about).

I would agree that assurance of salvation ought not be conflated with salvation itself. One may believe he or she is saved and not be. Conversely, one may actually be reconciled to God through Christ though entertaining doubts of his or present salvation.

Here is an interesting quote from Arminius in his Declaration of Sentiments (1608):

With regard to the certainty [or assurance] of salvation, my opinion is, that it is possible for him who believes in Jesus Christ to be certain and persuaded, and, if his heart condemn him not, he is now in reality assured, that he is a son of God, and stands in the grace of Jesus Christ. Such a certainty is wrought in the mind, as well by the action of the Holy Spirit inwardly actuating the believer and by the fruits of faith, as from his own conscience, and the testimony of God’s Spirit witnessing together with his conscience. I also believe, that it is possible for such a person, with an assured confidence in the grace of God and his mercy in Christ, to depart out of this life, and to appear before the throne of grace, without any anxious fear or terrific dread: and yet this person should constantly pray, "O lord, enter not into judgment with thy servant!"

But, since "God is greater than our hearts, and knoweth all things," and since a man judges not his own self—yea, though a man know nothing by himself, yet is he not thereby justified, but he who judgeth him is the Lord, (1 John iii. 19; 1 Cor. iv. 3,) I dare not [on this account] place this assurance [or certainty] on an equality with that by which we know there is a God, and that Christ is the saviour of the world. Yet it will be proper to make the extent of the boundaries of this assurance, a subject of inquiry in our convention. [Emphasis added]¹

Note

¹ http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius12.htm

[The Remonstrant]

So now you admit that you believe we gain eternal life by law-keeping.

Oh, no; not this again.

[The Remonstrant]

This would appear to say that in effect, only those who were truly in Christ persevered. (And I have posted elsewhere that I personally find this to be the single most difficult verse [1 John 2:19 for Arminianism.)

KG:

I can appreciate your attempting to seriously grapple with a verse you perceive to be in some way out of alignment with Arminian thought, but I honestly do not share your reservations. I have previously explained in some depth why I believe 1 John 2:19 comports better with Arminianism than Calvinism, so I will not revisit the issue here. The crux of the matter is this: theological method. If you have one or two texts which seem to throw a monkey wrench in your overall understanding of Scripture, by all means wrestle with the one or two texts and do not ignore them. But in the end, it must come down to a cumulative case. In my judgement, a cumulative case for the doctrine of necessary perseverance/infallible divine preservation in the New Testament is nowhere to be found (i.e., non-existent). I simply do not understand how or why 1 John 2:19 should pose such an insurmountable problem for you. E.g., would you allow Revelation 20:10 to throw your understanding of final punishment as annihilation into complete disarray? I'm inclined to think not. That would be ridiculous, and at an intuitive level I believe you understand this. Your understanding of Scripture will be completely schizophrenic if you do not at some point seek to synthesize or harmonize the evidence (and I am saying this as one who has certain reservations as to how systematic theology may be misused or abused).¹

Lastly, I commend the following excellent "counter-points" volume to you (if you haven't read it already): Four Views on the Warning Passages in Hebrews, ed. Herbert W. Bateman IV (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 2007).² I trust you'll discover Gareth L. Cockerill and Grant R. Osborne's essays to be most faithful to the biblical text. That said, I will say no more on this topic on this thread.


Notes

¹ I tend to find James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries to be a prime example of a recent theologian who almost invariably seeks to resolve any and all scriptural tensions or uneasiness by employing his infallible Reformed-Calvinistic systematic theological grid to come to the rescue.

² http://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-War.../dp/0825421322

[Leonhard]

If you aren't sure it's possible, then what makes you even suggest it? All the people who twist verses to teach that you can lose your "eternal" life also teach that it is possible to lose it accidentally, or through strong temptation.

You cannot accidentally commit a sin, especially not a mortal sin, its always an act of the will.

This concept -- intentionally choosing to go to hell -- is basically just a philosophical idea that you thought up.

Actually Teal is onboard with most of the theologians going up the middle ages. We choose to go to hell, in as much as we choose to do the things that imply that we don't love God.

[Leonhard]

So now you admit that you believe we gain eternal life by law-keeping.

Yes. No one who sins against the law unrepentantly can enter Heaven. A Lutheran would say that their Faith is dead, since the person doesn't perform the works of faith. If you're a Catholic (like I'm becoming) then you'd say that the person has lost his grace having willfully committed mortal sin, and until he repents appropriately he won't be forgiven.

[One Bad Pig]

So now you admit that you believe we gain eternal life by law-keeping.

You have, once again, misapprehended my beliefs. Care to try again? Try reading James for comprehension this time, instead of forcing the text into the straitjacket of your preconceived notions.

[Leonhard]

It should be noted that the sense that we 'earn' salvation isn't in the strict sense of getting paid for a job done. Whatever grace we get is completely up to God and is undeserved. However its also true that without demonstrating certain works, at the very least a contrite heart, we can't enter Heaven. All the things necessary for these things are given as a grace to us, but God doesn't force us to do it, he just makes it possible for us to attain if we want to.