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Pop preachers and their heretical beliefs

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
    I would hesitate to call these people suckers. They are generally highly uneducated people mired in poverty (with many chronic ailments) who will give their last dollar to anyone providing hope from the Bible that they were raised to believe has authority. Undoubtedly they go and listen to these men for motivation to live another day and to escape the hell that characterizes their lives through "spiritual ecstasy". Charlatans or well-meaning people (like Joyce Meyer) take advantage and/or perpetuate the problem.

    It doesn't take the grace of God to prevent people from believing lies and nonsense like the teachings of charlatans, just an education.
    This is simplistic and inaccurate. The people at the WF church I used to attend were mostly "working class." There were a few who were "poor." There were a few who were NOT poor, to the extent that they may have been "1-percenters." I would guess that a large minority if not actual majority had college degrees, and I know several had graduate degrees.

    Most of the WF churches I visited in that era shared roughly that same demographic breakdown.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by DLAbaoaqu View Post
      Oral Roberts:
      I felt an overwhelming holy presence all around me. When I opened my eyes, there He stood ... some 900 feet tall, looking at me ... He stood a full 300 feet taller than the 600-foot-tall City of Faith. There I was face to face with Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. I have only seen Jesus once before, but here I was face to face with the King of kings. He reached down, put his Hands under the City of Faith, lifted it, and said to me, "See how easy it is for Me to lift it!" (circa 1977)
      Odd. Not heretical by any means.


      And also his fundraiser:
      I want you to use the ORU (Oral Roberts University) medical school to put My medical presence in the earth. I want you to get this going in one year or I will call you home. It will cost $8 million and I want you to believe you can raise it. (Abundant Life, Jan/Feb. 1987)

      He actually said God would kill him if he failed to get that much.
      Odd, not heretical.

      If there is a place where Oral "actually said God would kill him," your quote does not show it -- at least not in the sense that your interpretation implies. Your implication is, "Get the money or I'll kill you as punishment for failing!" I see the context saying something more like, "You need to raise the money to accomplish your mission, and if you don't, your mission will be ended."
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Oh, without a doubt...

        Source: HEAVEN - Close Encounters of the God Kind by Jesse Duplantis


        Now it's an amazing thing the way God knows how to prove things. As the car flipped over, and the steering wheel broke in my hand, up out of that steering wheel, I saw popcorn coming! Then, Bam! That popcorn started hitting me! I said, "Ohhh, look at this popcorn," just flipping.
        When I came to a stop, I tried to get out of the vehicle as best I could, but I was jammed inside it, hanging upside-down. Thank God there wasn't a fire during that wreck. I could have been burned alive!
        People stopped to help.
        The car had to be cut open with a welding torch before I could be pulled free from it. Then I was put into an ambulance and rushed to the hospital.
        I kept hollering, "There was popcorn in there! Popcorn!" I said, "Listen! Somebody grabbed me! Somebody's hand was on my shoulder! I would have died otherwise. I was flying." They all thought I was in shock. They gave me four aspirins at the hospital.

        © Copyright Original Source

        I don't know what is the point of that citation.


        ...
        “People don’t like being commanded to do something. Except God! God says, ‘Command ye Me!’…That’s not arrogance! That’s understanding who you are! Quit judging yourself like you’re merely human! You’re more than human!”
        (Jesse Duplantis, “Spring Praise-A-Thon,” TBN, April 6, 2005)
        FTR, whether or not the application is hermeneutically sound, there is Scriptural basis for that in Isa. 45:11 (KJV, NKJV, HCSB, inter alia).
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Federalist.

        Nationalist Christian.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

        Justice for Matthew Perna!

        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
          There's nothing wrong with that per se.
          Yes it is. It's a blatant lie.



          There's also nothing necessarily wrong with that.
          See above.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            I assume that you refer to 1 Cor. 15:8, which in no way makes the point you claim; and if it did, it would put Paul in direct contradiction with John the Revelator, disproving Scripture.
            John saw Jesus in a vision, not in person like Paul did.


            Duplantis may well be a nut, but that's a separate issue.
            Not "may well be"... IS.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              I don't know what is the point of that citation.
              More evidence that Jesse Duplantis is




              FTR, whether or not the application is hermeneutically sound, there is Scriptural basis for that in Isa. 45:11 (KJV, NKJV, HCSB, inter alia).
              No it isn't. It's ripped from its context.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                Yes it is. It's a blatant lie.


                See above.
                Your mere assertion is not sufficient evidence that his claim to have met and/or spoken with Jesus is a "lie." The most you can say is that such a claim is inconsistent with your own understanding of theology. I tend to think that making a factual claim -- e.g., "What he said was a lie" -- without being able to provide factual proof of your claim -- could be considered libelous, or at least defamatory. (OTOH, something like "He's a ding-dong" is clearly a matter of opinion, not fact, and more readily protected.)
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  John saw Jesus in a vision, not in person like Paul did.

                  Can you prove that from Scripture? I have looked at Acts 9, 1 Cor. 9:1 and 15:8, and 2 Cor. 12:2, as well as Matt. 17, Mark 9, and Rev. 1. I don't find any way of knowing that the appearance of Jesus to Saul was "real" as opposed to some sort of "vision," or of telling whether it was the same or different when compared to the appearance of Moses and Elijah to the disciples, or to the appearance of Jesus to John on Patmos.

                  Also, even if that is true, nothing in Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 15 or elsewhere precludes later persons from meeting Jesus.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                    No it isn't. It's ripped from its context.
                    That's why I included the part about hermeneutical soundness.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      Can you prove that from Scripture?
                      Paul says the Risen Lord appeared LAST to him. I take that to mean exactly that. I also take that the next time Jesus personally appears after Paul's "Last" will be when His foot touches the Mount of Olives at the end. I do not believe Jesse Duplantis, Joseph Smith, or anyone else claiming to have personally met the risen Lord.

                      I have looked at Acts 9, 1 Cor. 9:1 and 15:8, and 2 Cor. 12:2, as well as Matt. 17, Mark 9, and Rev. 1. I don't find any way of knowing that the appearance of Jesus to Saul was "real" as opposed to some sort of "vision," or of telling whether it was the same or different when compared to the appearance of Moses and Elijah to the disciples, or to the appearance of Jesus to John on Patmos.
                      The context of 1 Cor 15:7-9 makes it clear that Paul was including himself in the same type of witness that James and the other Apostles experienced.

                      Also, even if that is true, nothing in Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 15 or elsewhere precludes later persons from meeting Jesus.
                      Paul was listing the special witnesses to Jesus' resurrection, bookending those at the beginning and the end. Paul was the last of those witnesses and it is one reason Paul could make the claim that he was an Apostle. It's true that both Paul and John saw Jesus several times after the road to Damascus, but these weren't significant in regards to witnessing the resurrection because both had already witnessed it. So, would Jesus appear again to other people before Judgment Day? If He did, then there would be additional witnesses to the resurrection not found in scripture, and Paul would no longer be the last witness. And it brings up the obvious question of WHY did Jesus supposedly visit that person? Jesus visited Paul to make him the Apostle to the Gentiles and in a vision to John to proclaim the book of Revelation. What purpose would Jesus have had to visit Jesse Duplantis, especially just to ask Jesse if he liked it in heaven...
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Heiferdust.
                        "Obama is not a brown-skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You are thinking of Jesus." Episcopal Bishop of Arizona

                        I remember WinAce. Gone but not forgotten.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Paul says the Risen Lord appeared LAST to him. I take that to mean exactly that. I also take that the next time Jesus personally appears after Paul's "Last" will be when His foot touches the Mount of Olives at the end. I do not believe Jesse Duplantis, Joseph Smith, or anyone else claiming to have personally met the risen Lord.
                          "last" has a range of meanings, so interpreting "last" to mean "final" in the absolute sense is kind of risky. Paul provides a list, and last on that list is Paul - that is as much as can be declared from the record.



                          The context of 1 Cor 15:7-9 makes it clear that Paul was including himself in the same type of witness that James and the other Apostles experienced.
                          Yup. Claims that Paul was inferior to the founding apostles were being addressed and refuted rather compellingly. He was saying that in every way he was their equal ... which kind of raises issues about whether there might have been a superior apostle.



                          Paul was listing the special witnesses to Jesus' resurrection, bookending those at the beginning and the end. Paul was the last of those witnesses and it is one reason Paul could make the claim that he was an Apostle. It's true that both Paul and John saw Jesus several times after the road to Damascus, but these weren't significant in regards to witnessing the resurrection because both had already witnessed it. So, would Jesus appear again to other people before Judgment Day? If He did, then there would be additional witnesses to the resurrection not found in scripture, and Paul would no longer be the last witness.
                          And was Christ's appearance to John prior to or after he appeared to Paul?
                          And it brings up the obvious question of WHY did Jesus supposedly visit that person? Jesus visited Paul to make him the Apostle to the Gentiles and in a vision to John to proclaim the book of Revelation. What purpose would Jesus have had to visit Jesse Duplantis, especially just to ask Jesse if he liked it in heaven...
                          Yup - Jesus putting in an appearance just to pass the time of day DOES seem to be a little out of character.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            "last" has a range of meanings, so interpreting "last" to mean "final" in the absolute sense is kind of risky. Paul provides a list, and last on that list is Paul - that is as much as can be declared from the record.



                            Yup. Claims that Paul was inferior to the founding apostles were being addressed and refuted rather compellingly. He was saying that in every way he was their equal ... which kind of raises issues about whether there might have been a superior apostle.



                            And was Christ's appearance to John prior to or after he appeared to Paul?
                            I don't think we can know. Probably after, based on when the Revelation was (believed to be) written, but the events it records could have happened long before it was written down.

                            A lot of these definitive declarations of "wrong" or "heretical" are matters not of fact but of interpretation, preconception, etc.


                            Yup - Jesus putting in an appearance just to pass the time of day DOES seem to be a little out of character.
                            Yes. I mean, He *is* our Friend and Brother, but still, Scripture does not record any occasion of Him making an appearance simply in that aspect.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                            Justice for Matthew Perna!

                            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by kiwimac View Post
                              Heiferdust.
                              Making your shopping list?
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Don't know if we've talked about Hillsong and Carl Lentz.......

                                http://www.glorygathering.com/carl-l...false-teacher/


                                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                                Comment

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