Originally posted by rogue06
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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Kenosis Theology / Kenotic Christology
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From the quotation of Storms: ""It isn’t that God the Son ceased to be God while he walked and ministered on the earth."
Fair enough. So what was born of Mary: God the Son Incarnate - or, a mere man ? And if the latter: how, and when, did this mere man become God ?
Calvinist Adoptionism makes sense.
Calvinist Nestorianism makes sense.
Calvinist Modalism makes sense
What does not make sense, is a denial that God the Word Incarnate really and truly derived His Humanity (a created thing BTW) from the BVM, as truly and really as any human son derives his humanity from his mother.
If the BVM is really and truly the human, created, mother of the Word Incarnate, then she is unavoidably, truly & really the created human mother of the Eternal Divine Logos Who is eternally with the Father. If God the Son can truly undergo death - on a cross, at that - why is it such a stretch to say that He can be, and was, "born of a woman" ? How is birth from a woman any more unclean or humiliating or yucky than being crucified ?
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View PostFrom the quotation of Storms: ""It isn’t that God the Son ceased to be God while he walked and ministered on the earth."
Fair enough. So what was born of Mary: God the Son Incarnate - or, a mere man ? And if the latter: how, and when, did this mere man become God ?
Calvinist Adoptionism makes sense.
Calvinist Nestorianism makes sense.
Calvinist Modalism makes sense
What does not make sense, is a denial that God the Word Incarnate really and truly derived His Humanity (a created thing BTW) from the BVM, as truly and really as any human son derives his humanity from his mother.
If the BVM is really and truly the human, created, mother of the Word Incarnate, then she is unavoidably, truly & really the created human mother of the Eternal Divine Logos Who is eternally with the Father. If God the Son can truly undergo death - on a cross, at that - why is it such a stretch to say that He can be, and was, "born of a woman" ? How is birth from a woman any more unclean or humiliating or yucky than being crucified ?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Per tabby in the "sarcasm" thread: "To the best of my knowledge, Jesus accepted worship only after the resurrection. That might be a good avenue for you to pursue as counter argument - can you find a place where it says that Jesus accepted worship prior to his crucifixion?"Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
If you believe Jesus was no longer God when he was human that is unorthodox and you need to change your faith designation. The doctrine that Jesus was both fully man and fully God the Son (the hypostatic union) is one of the core doctrines of orthodox Christianity.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostPer tabby in the "sarcasm" thread: "To the best of my knowledge, Jesus accepted worship only after the resurrection. That might be a good avenue for you to pursue as counter argument - can you find a place where it says that Jesus accepted worship prior to his crucifixion?""For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
- 2 likes
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
There is at least one example of Jesus accepting worship before the Resurrection. After He walked on water, the disciples worshiped him as the Son of God. ( Matthew 14:33)
In the parable of the unforgiving slave, the slave is said to worship the master (perfectly acceptable practice). It is quite an illuminating exercise to trace proskuneo through the New Testament and see how often it is not translated as worship. If those occurrences are included, Jesus accepted worship on quite a number of occasions.
However - in terms of whether Jesus accepted worship during his birth-to-death incarnation, the major issue is whether the worshippers saw "the son of God" as a man or deity.
Your comment does provide an avenue for further investigation, so thanks. (I think).Last edited by tabibito; 10-07-2021, 08:31 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Proskuneo does have a range of meanings - whether Jesus was accepting worship as deity or "worship" as a person deemed worthy of worship makes a difference.
In the parable of the unforgiving slave, the slave is said to worship the master (perfectly acceptable practice). It is quite an illuminating exercise to trace proskuneo through the New Testament and see how often it is not translated as worship. If those occurrences are included, Jesus accepted worship on quite a number of occasions.
However - in terms of whether Jesus accepted worship during his birth-to-death incarnation, the major issue is whether the worshippers saw "the son of God" as a man or deity.
Your comment does provide an avenue for further investigation, so thanks. (I think).Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
It will be interesting to see whether one can suss out whether "worship" in the homage-to-deity sense was read back into some of the texts by translators after dogma had become established.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
What does not make sense, is a denial that God the Word Incarnate really and truly derived His Humanity (a created thing BTW) from the BVM, as truly and really as any human son derives his humanity from his mother.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
The reason I started this thread was that I'd been pondering the "Pop preachers and their heretical beliefs" thread. Heresy hunters look at Word-Faith and related preachers, with their flamboyant and careless remarks, and declare them and anyone who says anything that even sounds remotely similar to be "heretics."
Kenosis and deification are probably the two that most seriously get their knickers in a wad.
Your closing sentence is provocative, and would probably earn you the "heretic" label from the hunters. It's a statement I think even most kenosis advocates, like Storms, Olsen, and the late Gerald Hawthorne, would hesitate to make.
I'm a bit uncomfortable with it, but I can't think of any Scripture that invalidates it.
Ask what Logos emptied himself of: the answer is in verse 6 itself, and only one answer is possible - even using the mangled translations in English.
[I have been told that the arguments that I have presented based on the record of Hebrews are more compelling - but they are more difficult to demonstrate.]
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Proskuneo does have a range of meanings - whether Jesus was accepting worship as deity or "worship" as a person deemed worthy of worship makes a difference.
In the parable of the unforgiving slave, the slave is said to worship the master (perfectly acceptable practice). It is quite an illuminating exercise to trace proskuneo through the New Testament and see how often it is not translated as worship. If those occurrences are included, Jesus accepted worship on quite a number of occasions.
However - in terms of whether Jesus accepted worship during his birth-to-death incarnation, the major issue is whether the worshippers saw "the son of God" as a man or deity.
Your comment does provide an avenue for further investigation, so thanks. (I think).
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostOut of curiosity, how does worshipping another person being an acceptable practice mesh with Matthew 6:24?
Neither the prohibitions on worship nor the admonitions to not serve two masters are aimed at mere social conventions, nor at simple basic service ... otherwise, who could perform military duty, or even work as a waiter?
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
worship - pay homage/give reverence. People of different cultures and in different eras have different ways of expressing proskuneo. You will have seen the traditional Japanese expression in anime often enough - a bow anywhere between 45 and 90 degrees. In contemporary western societies - hand over the heart or a salute are also forms of proskuneo, bow or curtsy, dipping the lid (doffing one's hat or tugging its brim) likewise.
Neither the prohibitions on worship nor the admonitions to not serve two masters are aimed at mere social conventions, nor at simple basic service ... otherwise, who could perform military duty, or even work as a waiter?
And obeying orders and getting paid to provide a service can hardly be considered worship of any sort.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostMost of those examples you cited from the West would never be confused with any sort of worship. They are signs of respect and the hat tip is often nothing more than acknowledging someone's presence. Sort of like a slight nod of the head. And a full of doffing of the hat is again merely a sign of respect.
And obeying orders and getting paid to provide a service can hardly be considered worship of any sort.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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