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Kenosis Theology / Kenotic Christology

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    I had to look up "ineluctable"
    That's one of the blessings of Tweb and all its eclectic members.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      From the quotation of Storms: ""It isn’t that God the Son ceased to be God while he walked and ministered on the earth."

      Fair enough. So what was born of Mary: God the Son Incarnate - or, a mere man ? And if the latter: how, and when, did this mere man become God ?

      Calvinist Adoptionism makes sense.
      Calvinist Nestorianism makes sense.
      Calvinist Modalism makes sense

      What does not make sense, is a denial that God the Word Incarnate really and truly derived His Humanity (a created thing BTW) from the BVM, as truly and really as any human son derives his humanity from his mother.

      If the BVM is really and truly the human, created, mother of the Word Incarnate, then she is unavoidably, truly & really the created human mother of the Eternal Divine Logos Who is eternally with the Father. If God the Son can truly undergo death - on a cross, at that - why is it such a stretch to say that He can be, and was, "born of a woman" ? How is birth from a woman any more unclean or humiliating or yucky than being crucified ?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
        From the quotation of Storms: ""It isn’t that God the Son ceased to be God while he walked and ministered on the earth."

        Fair enough. So what was born of Mary: God the Son Incarnate - or, a mere man ? And if the latter: how, and when, did this mere man become God ?

        Calvinist Adoptionism makes sense.
        Calvinist Nestorianism makes sense.
        Calvinist Modalism makes sense

        What does not make sense, is a denial that God the Word Incarnate really and truly derived His Humanity (a created thing BTW) from the BVM, as truly and really as any human son derives his humanity from his mother.

        If the BVM is really and truly the human, created, mother of the Word Incarnate, then she is unavoidably, truly & really the created human mother of the Eternal Divine Logos Who is eternally with the Father. If God the Son can truly undergo death - on a cross, at that - why is it such a stretch to say that He can be, and was, "born of a woman" ? How is birth from a woman any more unclean or humiliating or yucky than being crucified ?
        The key questions: Did God shed his own blood to secure the church? Did God die?
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          Per tabby in the "sarcasm" thread: "To the best of my knowledge, Jesus accepted worship only after the resurrection. That might be a good avenue for you to pursue as counter argument - can you find a place where it says that Jesus accepted worship prior to his crucifixion?"
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            If you believe Jesus was no longer God when he was human that is unorthodox and you need to change your faith designation. The doctrine that Jesus was both fully man and fully God the Son (the hypostatic union) is one of the core doctrines of orthodox Christianity.
            Kenosis theology is not considered unorthodox these days, though it is considered a minority (to the point of being "fringe") viewpoint, nor does it contradict the Nicene Creed - except for the anathema, but that is a post-script. Kenosis theology is however in conflict with later versions of the creed.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              Per tabby in the "sarcasm" thread: "To the best of my knowledge, Jesus accepted worship only after the resurrection. That might be a good avenue for you to pursue as counter argument - can you find a place where it says that Jesus accepted worship prior to his crucifixion?"
              There is at least one example of Jesus accepting worship before the Resurrection. After He walked on water, the disciples worshiped him as the Son of God. ( Matthew 14:33)
              "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

              "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                There is at least one example of Jesus accepting worship before the Resurrection. After He walked on water, the disciples worshiped him as the Son of God. ( Matthew 14:33)
                Proskuneo does have a range of meanings - whether Jesus was accepting worship as deity or "worship" as a person deemed worthy of worship makes a difference.
                In the parable of the unforgiving slave, the slave is said to worship the master (perfectly acceptable practice). It is quite an illuminating exercise to trace proskuneo through the New Testament and see how often it is not translated as worship. If those occurrences are included, Jesus accepted worship on quite a number of occasions.

                However - in terms of whether Jesus accepted worship during his birth-to-death incarnation, the major issue is whether the worshippers saw "the son of God" as a man or deity.

                Your comment does provide an avenue for further investigation, so thanks. (I think).
                Last edited by tabibito; 10-07-2021, 08:31 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Proskuneo does have a range of meanings - whether Jesus was accepting worship as deity or "worship" as a person deemed worthy of worship makes a difference.
                  In the parable of the unforgiving slave, the slave is said to worship the master (perfectly acceptable practice). It is quite an illuminating exercise to trace proskuneo through the New Testament and see how often it is not translated as worship. If those occurrences are included, Jesus accepted worship on quite a number of occasions.

                  However - in terms of whether Jesus accepted worship during his birth-to-death incarnation, the major issue is whether the worshippers saw "the son of God" as a man or deity.

                  Your comment does provide an avenue for further investigation, so thanks. (I think).
                  It will be interesting to see whether one can suss out whether "worship" in the homage-to-deity sense was read back into some of the texts by translators after dogma had become established.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                    It will be interesting to see whether one can suss out whether "worship" in the homage-to-deity sense was read back into some of the texts by translators after dogma had become established.
                    I suspect that it was, but what one suspects isn't much of a foundation for understanding what the true doctrines are supposed to be. It seems that there is a fair bit of researching to be done.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post

                      What does not make sense, is a denial that God the Word Incarnate really and truly derived His Humanity (a created thing BTW) from the BVM, as truly and really as any human son derives his humanity from his mother.
                      Athanasius did say that Logos drew on Mary's flesh to fashion for himself a body which he then inhabited, but I'm not sure that viewpoint can be reconciled with the concept of Logos becoming flesh, as John declared had been done.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                        The reason I started this thread was that I'd been pondering the "Pop preachers and their heretical beliefs" thread. Heresy hunters look at Word-Faith and related preachers, with their flamboyant and careless remarks, and declare them and anyone who says anything that even sounds remotely similar to be "heretics."
                        "Heretic" is a word that I reserve for people who know the truth and deny it. It isn't a word to be used for people who merely lack understanding.

                        Kenosis and deification are probably the two that most seriously get their knickers in a wad.
                        And yet the Eastern churches have continued to affirm deification throughout their history.

                        Your closing sentence is provocative, and would probably earn you the "heretic" label from the hunters. It's a statement I think even most kenosis advocates, like Storms, Olsen, and the late Gerald Hawthorne, would hesitate to make.
                        Unfamiliar names - but is it that they aren't saying it, or just that they aren't saying it in so many words.

                        I'm a bit uncomfortable with it, but I can't think of any Scripture that invalidates it.
                        As to validation, try Philippians 2:6-8.
                        Ask what Logos emptied himself of: the answer is in verse 6 itself, and only one answer is possible - even using the mangled translations in English.
                        [I have been told that the arguments that I have presented based on the record of Hebrews are more compelling - but they are more difficult to demonstrate.]



                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          Proskuneo does have a range of meanings - whether Jesus was accepting worship as deity or "worship" as a person deemed worthy of worship makes a difference.
                          In the parable of the unforgiving slave, the slave is said to worship the master (perfectly acceptable practice). It is quite an illuminating exercise to trace proskuneo through the New Testament and see how often it is not translated as worship. If those occurrences are included, Jesus accepted worship on quite a number of occasions.

                          However - in terms of whether Jesus accepted worship during his birth-to-death incarnation, the major issue is whether the worshippers saw "the son of God" as a man or deity.

                          Your comment does provide an avenue for further investigation, so thanks. (I think).
                          Out of curiosity, how does worshipping another person being an acceptable practice mesh with Matthew 6:24?

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Out of curiosity, how does worshipping another person being an acceptable practice mesh with Matthew 6:24?
                            worship - pay homage/give reverence. People of different cultures and in different eras have different ways of expressing proskuneo. You will have seen the traditional Japanese expression in anime often enough - a bow anywhere between 45 and 90 degrees. In contemporary western societies - hand over the heart or a salute are also forms of proskuneo, bow or curtsy, dipping the lid (doffing one's hat or tugging its brim) likewise.

                            Neither the prohibitions on worship nor the admonitions to not serve two masters are aimed at mere social conventions, nor at simple basic service ... otherwise, who could perform military duty, or even work as a waiter?

                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              worship - pay homage/give reverence. People of different cultures and in different eras have different ways of expressing proskuneo. You will have seen the traditional Japanese expression in anime often enough - a bow anywhere between 45 and 90 degrees. In contemporary western societies - hand over the heart or a salute are also forms of proskuneo, bow or curtsy, dipping the lid (doffing one's hat or tugging its brim) likewise.

                              Neither the prohibitions on worship nor the admonitions to not serve two masters are aimed at mere social conventions, nor at simple basic service ... otherwise, who could perform military duty, or even work as a waiter?
                              Most of those examples you cited from the West would never be confused with any sort of worship. They are signs of respect and the hat tip is often nothing more than acknowledging someone's presence. Sort of like a slight nod of the head. And a full of doffing of the hat is again merely a sign of respect.

                              And obeying orders and getting paid to provide a service can hardly be considered worship of any sort.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Most of those examples you cited from the West would never be confused with any sort of worship. They are signs of respect and the hat tip is often nothing more than acknowledging someone's presence. Sort of like a slight nod of the head. And a full of doffing of the hat is again merely a sign of respect.

                                And obeying orders and getting paid to provide a service can hardly be considered worship of any sort.
                                Just so. They are matters of paying respect, which is proskuneo, but they are not what we mean when we say "worship."
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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