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Justice - Mercy - Grace - Fairness

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    I'm still mulling this over myself. Seems to me it is not so much the sacrifice itself, but the submission to the Father's will that is the decider. Just why either Adam's sin or Christ's righteousness should have a flow-on effect isn't clear. However, Christ's sacrifice doesn't seem to deal directly with sin: insofar as I can see - Christ's death is a triumph over death-caused-by-sin. As per Hebrews 2:14-15
    OK, you're starting to lose me. Christ's death on the Cross was the very picture of the Passover. In fact, he "repurposed" the "Last Supper" (Passover) by taking the third cup of wine - the glass of redemption - and saying "this cup is the New Testament in my blood"....

    Unlike the Day of Atonement in prior years (before the Last Supper), the sins of the people were, essentially, "rolled over" into the new year, requiring yet another "day of atonement", on and on and on (besides the daily offerings). Hebrews makes it clear that this Great High Priest makes the sacrifice once and for all forever.

    Christ became our Sin Offering, once and for all, for us to accept or reject.

    But I think we're getting away from the basic principles of Justice, Mercy and Grace -- and Impartiality.

    I'm told that the Jews (sometime BCE) had this idea that a single righteous act could save as readily as a single wrongful act could condemn.
    They had a lot of nutty ideas.

    The pieces are there, but the jigsaw isn't coming together to form a complete picture.
    And the picture won't be complete til we stand with Christ in His Kingdom.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      OK, you're starting to lose me. Christ's death on the Cross was the very picture of the Passover. In fact, he "repurposed" the "Last Supper" (Passover) by taking the third cup of wine - the glass of redemption - and saying "this cup is the New Testament in my blood"....
      OK - I'll pick it up on another thread. Not today though, I have to finish an essay that was due on Friday.
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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      • #18
        r
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        OK - I'll pick it up on another thread. Not today though, I have to finish an essay that was due on Friday.
        You're good! I enjoy your input. I just wasn't thinking this thread would get really deep - just some observations.

        But, it's not like you're trying to start a fight or anything. ARE YOU?!?!?!?!
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          I like how you worded that "bumper sticker phrase" --- I usually see it as "God said it, I believe it, that settles it". Truth is, it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, it's still settled!

          And I don't worry a whole lot about the Law, because, if I allow the Holy Spirit to guide me, I'll be OK with regards to the Law.

          That's a bigger problem, because man can come up with some pretty dumb - even anti-Christian - laws. That's a whole 'nuther can of worms.

          Often, when people "march for justice", what they really want is vengeance or payback. As for the racial part - I think we can go back to MLK --- who wanted his children to be known "for the content of their character, not for the color of their skin".
          Thanks.

          So if I'm following you correctly: the law is how we say we'll run our society and justice is how we apply the law to society. Justice implies that the law is applied equally and fairly.

          I agree that many people who march for justice have no idea of what they are marching to achieve. As I learned at work, a goal you can't measure is no goal at all. On the other hand, the marchers usually have experienced injustice in their lives so I'm not going to say all are motivated by vengeance or payback. It's like any large group - lots of different motivations have brought the people together and stereotyping them doesn't help us reach a solution.
          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

            Thanks.

            So if I'm following you correctly: the law is how we say we'll run our society and justice is how we apply the law to society. Justice implies that the law is applied equally and fairly.

            I agree that many people who march for justice have no idea of what they are marching to achieve. As I learned at work, a goal you can't measure is no goal at all. On the other hand, the marchers usually have experienced injustice in their lives so I'm not going to say all are motivated by vengeance or payback. It's like any large group - lots of different motivations have brought the people together and stereotyping them doesn't help us reach a solution.
            Laws are the fence, the boundary of acceptable behavior. Human law can be good or bad. In the case of God's Law, it defines moral behavior. Justice is about enforcing morality. Rewarding those who are moral and punishing those who are immoral. And doing so fairly.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
              Thanks.

              So if I'm following you correctly: the law is how we say we'll run our society and justice is how we apply the law to society. Justice implies that the law is applied equally and fairly.
              God's law is black and white, and does not change.
              Man's law is black and white, but is subject to change without notice.

              Justice is the GOAL of administering the law, but there are way to many cases of misadministration of the law, which is NOT Justice.
              Deuteronomy and Leviticus are filled with warnings to judge without partiality.

              I agree that many people who march for justice have no idea of what they are marching to achieve. As I learned at work, a goal you can't measure is no goal at all. On the other hand, the marchers usually have experienced injustice in their lives so I'm not going to say all are motivated by vengeance or payback. It's like any large group - lots of different motivations have brought the people together and stereotyping them doesn't help us reach a solution.
              Yes, people "demanding justice" are often demanding retaliation, punishment, revenge, etc.... And when a "just" verdict is delivered, they will often riot or revolt or refuse to accept it because it didn't satisfy their desire for revenge or punishment.

              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                Laws are the fence, the boundary of acceptable behavior. Human law can be good or bad. In the case of God's Law, it defines moral behavior. Justice is about enforcing morality. Rewarding those who are moral and punishing those who are immoral. And doing so fairly.
                In the same manner that football has rules ("the law"),
                and the referees are there to enforce those rules (administer justice),
                and, hopefully, to apply them equally to both teams (often does not work out that way).
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  In the same manner that football has rules ("the law"),
                  and the referees are there to enforce those rules (administer justice),
                  and, hopefully, to apply them equally to both teams (often does not work out that way).
                  except in the case of human laws. we can have bad ones and then justice ISN'T enforcing them. That's why I made the distinction above that Justice is about enforcing morality rather than merely rules/laws. Enforcing a bad law isn't fair or just.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    except in the case of human laws. we can have bad ones and then justice ISN'T enforcing them. That's why I made the distinction above that Justice is about enforcing morality rather than merely rules/laws. Enforcing a bad law isn't fair or just.
                    Yes, the football one would clearly be an example of human laws, with humans making those laws.

                    God's laws are about morality, yes. But, then again, look at the Taliban, who believe they are "enforcing morality" with their severe punishments and killings.
                    Such was clearly spoken against in Deuteronomy and Leviticus (about which they obviously do not care)
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      Yes, the football one would clearly be an example of human laws, with humans making those laws.

                      God's laws are about morality, yes. But, then again, look at the Taliban, who believe they are "enforcing morality" with their severe punishments and killings.
                      Such was clearly spoken against in Deuteronomy and Leviticus (about which they obviously do not care)
                      good point. In the minds of evil people I guess "morality" isn't the same thing as we think.


                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Good point. In the minds of evil people I guess "morality" isn't the same thing as we think.
                        Which is why, I believe, there is so much in the OT about judging without partiality, and James 2 goes into that. It's not just "bad form" -- it's sin.

                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          This has been an interesting and informative conversation so let's continue.

                          First God's Law and Justice is given to us and ultimately enforced by God. Now I don't think anybody on this thread believes we perfectly follow God's Law. So we don't appeal to God's Law to make us right before God. We appeal to God's Mercy for forgiveness for breaking His Law. He can provide mercy because the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross satisfies the requirements of the Law.

                          Going back to CowPoke's schoolmaster comment (post #12), the Law stands to show us how unworthy we are before God. It teaches us that we need Jesus to be able to stand rightly before God. The more I understand how much I have failed the Law's standard, the more I understand how I need God's mercy. It's a humbling experience.

                          Now man's law exists because we are in rebellion against God. I suggest that man's law won't need to exist if man was sinless. I'm having trouble coming up with a situation that isn't covered under God's law. The problem with man's laws is that they can get too specific. We've seen the lists of "silly" laws still on the books. A few times I've read about people being prosecuted under a really old law that hasn't been enforced in years but the prosecutor really wanted to get them. Of course we've also seen crimes and look at the punishment given out and think that's all? For example after seeing reports on Bernie Madoff, I think he should have gotten the death penalty for all the damage he did to people's lives. Getting justice under man's law seems a real roll of the dice.

                          This does bring us into another aspect of law/justice/mercy - punishment. How does punishment fit in with law and justice. I thinking primarily under man's law but your welcome to talk about under God's law. I'm still sorting it through so I'll let you talk about it now...
                          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                            This has been an interesting and informative conversation so let's continue.


                            First God's Law and Justice is given to us and ultimately enforced by God. Now I don't think anybody on this thread believes we perfectly follow God's Law. So we don't appeal to God's Law to make us right before God. We appeal to God's Mercy for forgiveness for breaking His Law. He can provide mercy because the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross satisfies the requirements of the Law.


                            Going back to CowPoke's schoolmaster comment (post #12), the Law stands to show us how unworthy we are before God. It teaches us that we need Jesus to be able to stand rightly before God. The more I understand how much I have failed the Law's standard, the more I understand how I need God's mercy. It's a humbling experience.
                            And most scholars agree that the "schoolmaster" in Galatians 3:24 is not a "schoomaster" in the sense that we think of a principal or head teacher, but a paidagōgos, or a "pedagogue", which was typically a slave in Greek families who was reponsibile to get small children to school, and to serve as a tutor to them, helping them with morals and discipline.

                            Now man's law exists because we are in rebellion against God. I suggest that man's law won't need to exist if man was sinless. I'm having trouble coming up with a situation that isn't covered under God's law. The problem with man's laws is that they can get too specific.
                            Man's laws are subject to change, subject to majority rule, subject to adjust with a changing culture.
                            God's laws don't change - they are built on principals, not circumstances.

                            We've seen the lists of "silly" laws still on the books. A few times I've read about people being prosecuted under a really old law that hasn't been enforced in years but the prosecutor really wanted to get them. Of course we've also seen crimes and look at the punishment given out and think that's all? For example after seeing reports on Bernie Madoff, I think he should have gotten the death penalty for all the damage he did to people's lives. Getting justice under man's law seems a real roll of the dice.

                            This does bring us into another aspect of law/justice/mercy - punishment. How does punishment fit in with law and justice. I thinking primarily under man's law but your welcome to talk about under God's law. I'm still sorting it through so I'll let you talk about it now...
                            Good discussion, TM.

                            Lemme think on punishment, and respond after my coffee. It was a very late night last night.

                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Just tossing some ideas out to get feedback and even testimonies or personal experiences...

                              I've often taught (not original to me) that...

                              Fairness is so subjective
                              • "fair to whom?"
                              • (Let's just scrap this one)
                              Justice - getting ALL we deserve.
                              • When somebody does something to one of our children, we demand JUSTICE!!!!
                              Mercy - NOT getting all we deserve.
                              • When we do something that gets us in trouble, we want MERCY!!!!
                              Grace - Getting what I do NOT deserve
                              • Justice, because I'm a sinner, would have me spend an eternity in Hell
                              • Mercy, by Christ's substitutionary death, keeps me from Hell
                              • Grace, God's Grace, allows me to spend eternity in Heaven with Him
                              And then there will be some examples...
                              In one sense, fairness is subjective. But not in others. Some distinctions need to be made.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                                In one sense, fairness is subjective. But not in others. Some distinctions need to be made.
                                Yes.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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