Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Tax the Church
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
Like the George Floyd incident. There have been black people who were killed by the police before, and even on camera. But for whatever reason, that particular incident sparked a flame that wouldn't be put out.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
Like the George Floyd incident. There have been black people who were killed by the police before, and even on camera. But for whatever reason, that particular incident sparked a flame that wouldn't be put out.
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
There have already been scandals. They just didn't create the drive to make the change. On the other hand, your right. You just need the right scandal being pushed to cause a change.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
There's certainly not at this point, but then just twenty years ago, the idea that society would as a whole accept gay marriage within a matter of years seemed laughable, too. In our outrage, "do something about this now" culture, I could see the political will creating itself after just one or two bad scandals involving megachurches or televangelists.
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Even 20 MONTHS ago, the idea of closing churches, limiting attendance, restricting singing, etc. would have seemed impossible.
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
Frankly at this time, I don't see enough political will to start taxing churches.
https://theconversation.com/amid-cal...-taxman-164988
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
And if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?
Unfortunately, the answer is yes and no. Legally, a church is a business with all those requirements. As long as we have churches with buildings (or rented space) and paid staff, a church will have to run at least partially as a business. I won't say a house church is better but it would lack some of these worldly distractions to deal with. A church should set aside the business mentality to fulfill the commandments of Christ. Unfortunately as we're discussing, a church (or its leadership) starts viewing itself as a business and can't get out of the mode.
Side note: I remember watching the really old (circa 1975) Left Behind videos. They had a scene in a church where the Sunday service was more like a business meeting. Maybe prophetic?
I think your question is something every church (or at least the leadership) needs to review and discuss. Not sure you can get to an answer...
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Funny you should say that, because in Church Budget meetings over the years, it's amazing how, when given an option for a ministry or something, somebody would say "but we're not a business - we can't run like a business", but when you're talking about staff raises or salaries, "well, you know, all the businesses are having to cut back on wage increases....."
Are we a business, or not!
Unfortunately, the answer is yes and no. Legally, a church is a business with all those requirements. As long as we have churches with buildings (or rented space) and paid staff, a church will have to run at least partially as a business. I won't say a house church is better but it would lack some of these worldly distractions to deal with. A church should set aside the business mentality to fulfill the commandments of Christ. Unfortunately as we're discussing, a church (or its leadership) starts viewing itself as a business and can't get out of the mode.
Side note: I remember watching the really old (circa 1975) Left Behind videos. They had a scene in a church where the Sunday service was more like a business meeting. Maybe prophetic?
I think your question is something every church (or at least the leadership) needs to review and discuss. Not sure you can get to an answer...
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
I would add the para-church ministries are probably even worse in this regard.
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
Agreed. A friend of mine told me a story about a pastor he know who got out of ministry because he couldn't make enough money.
I think are some good business principals (budgeting, clear roles and responsibilities, oversight, etc.) that should employed while running a church. However the church should not be a business.
Are we a business, or not!
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Unfortunately, many churches have acted like non-profit BUSINESSES, which gives good argument to those who want to do away with all tax-exempt status.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOne of the problems is that you have MILLIONAIRES as CEO of some of our "Churches" - and the tax exempt status was never intended to feed large sums of money to celebrities. That hurts the churches that are actually preaching the word and ministering to their communities.
I think are some good business principals (budgeting, clear roles and responsibilities, oversight, etc.) that should employed while running a church. However the church should not be a business.
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
I'm having trouble seeing how they could do just the church without other non-profits as well. At a minimum, they would have to strip it from all religious organizations.
I have seen a couple hints at non-profit reform. We may yet see this happen under that guise.
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