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Tax the Church

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  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

    In my opinion, that flame is fading rapidly as the consequences of the police reforms put in place become apparent.
    That "flame" had another component. There was virtually ZERO defense of killing of Floyd, and ZERO justification for it. Hence, there was pretty much only "one side" to this debate, which, interstingly enough, makes it hard to keep the debate alive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thoughtful Monk
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

    Like the George Floyd incident. There have been black people who were killed by the police before, and even on camera. But for whatever reason, that particular incident sparked a flame that wouldn't be put out.
    In my opinion, that flame is fading rapidly as the consequences of the police reforms put in place become apparent.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

    Like the George Floyd incident. There have been black people who were killed by the police before, and even on camera. But for whatever reason, that particular incident sparked a flame that wouldn't be put out.
    I think it was the fact that he looked like he really didn't care the least, and just kept it up.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

    There have already been scandals. They just didn't create the drive to make the change. On the other hand, your right. You just need the right scandal being pushed to cause a change.
    Like the George Floyd incident. There have been black people who were killed by the police before, and even on camera. But for whatever reason, that particular incident sparked a flame that wouldn't be put out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thoughtful Monk
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

    There's certainly not at this point, but then just twenty years ago, the idea that society would as a whole accept gay marriage within a matter of years seemed laughable, too. In our outrage, "do something about this now" culture, I could see the political will creating itself after just one or two bad scandals involving megachurches or televangelists.
    There have already been scandals. They just didn't create the drive to make the change. On the other hand, your right. You just need the right scandal being pushed to cause a change.

    Leave a comment:


  • NorrinRadd
    replied
    Even 20 MONTHS ago, the idea of closing churches, limiting attendance, restricting singing, etc. would have seemed impossible.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

    There's certainly not at this point, but then just twenty years ago, the idea that society would as a whole accept gay marriage within a matter of years seemed laughable, too.
    This is true - things sped up pretty quickly.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

    Frankly at this time, I don't see enough political will to start taxing churches.

    https://theconversation.com/amid-cal...-taxman-164988
    There's certainly not at this point, but then just twenty years ago, the idea that society would as a whole accept gay marriage within a matter of years seemed laughable, too. In our outrage, "do something about this now" culture, I could see the political will creating itself after just one or two bad scandals involving megachurches or televangelists.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

    And if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?

    Unfortunately, the answer is yes and no. Legally, a church is a business with all those requirements. As long as we have churches with buildings (or rented space) and paid staff, a church will have to run at least partially as a business. I won't say a house church is better but it would lack some of these worldly distractions to deal with. A church should set aside the business mentality to fulfill the commandments of Christ. Unfortunately as we're discussing, a church (or its leadership) starts viewing itself as a business and can't get out of the mode.

    Side note: I remember watching the really old (circa 1975) Left Behind videos. They had a scene in a church where the Sunday service was more like a business meeting. Maybe prophetic?

    I think your question is something every church (or at least the leadership) needs to review and discuss. Not sure you can get to an answer...
    I always answer, "as long as, like Jesus, we are about our Father's business...."

    Leave a comment:


  • Thoughtful Monk
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    Funny you should say that, because in Church Budget meetings over the years, it's amazing how, when given an option for a ministry or something, somebody would say "but we're not a business - we can't run like a business", but when you're talking about staff raises or salaries, "well, you know, all the businesses are having to cut back on wage increases....."

    Are we a business, or not!
    And if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?

    Unfortunately, the answer is yes and no. Legally, a church is a business with all those requirements. As long as we have churches with buildings (or rented space) and paid staff, a church will have to run at least partially as a business. I won't say a house church is better but it would lack some of these worldly distractions to deal with. A church should set aside the business mentality to fulfill the commandments of Christ. Unfortunately as we're discussing, a church (or its leadership) starts viewing itself as a business and can't get out of the mode.

    Side note: I remember watching the really old (circa 1975) Left Behind videos. They had a scene in a church where the Sunday service was more like a business meeting. Maybe prophetic?

    I think your question is something every church (or at least the leadership) needs to review and discuss. Not sure you can get to an answer...

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

    I would add the para-church ministries are probably even worse in this regard.
    Yes, but I've heard over and over that you can't really do the ministries without the fundraising, and that always takes a big name celebrity or a well-paid executive....

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

    Agreed. A friend of mine told me a story about a pastor he know who got out of ministry because he couldn't make enough money.

    I think are some good business principals (budgeting, clear roles and responsibilities, oversight, etc.) that should employed while running a church. However the church should not be a business.
    Funny you should say that, because in Church Budget meetings over the years, it's amazing how, when given an option for a ministry or something, somebody would say "but we're not a business - we can't run like a business", but when you're talking about staff raises or salaries, "well, you know, all the businesses are having to cut back on wage increases....."

    Are we a business, or not!

    Leave a comment:


  • Thoughtful Monk
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    Unfortunately, many churches have acted like non-profit BUSINESSES, which gives good argument to those who want to do away with all tax-exempt status.
    I would add the para-church ministries are probably even worse in this regard.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thoughtful Monk
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    One of the problems is that you have MILLIONAIRES as CEO of some of our "Churches" - and the tax exempt status was never intended to feed large sums of money to celebrities. That hurts the churches that are actually preaching the word and ministering to their communities.
    Agreed. A friend of mine told me a story about a pastor he know who got out of ministry because he couldn't make enough money.

    I think are some good business principals (budgeting, clear roles and responsibilities, oversight, etc.) that should employed while running a church. However the church should not be a business.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

    I'm having trouble seeing how they could do just the church without other non-profits as well. At a minimum, they would have to strip it from all religious organizations.

    I have seen a couple hints at non-profit reform. We may yet see this happen under that guise.
    One of the problems is that you have MILLIONAIRES as CEO of some of our "Churches" - and the tax exempt status was never intended to feed large sums of money to celebrities. That hurts the churches that are actually preaching the word and ministering to their communities.

    Leave a comment:

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