‘Theology Matters’—Why One Worship Leader Can No Longer Support Hillsong...

[Cow Poke]

I agree with you that the style of music doesn't really matter. It is the content of the lyrics that truly matters, and, in some respects, the way it is presented. I have nothing against a band or orchestra or an ensemble, but the raucous and, forgive me if this offends, the rock-style manner becomes more of a worldly entertainment that an opportunity to worship the character of God.

And, the emotional responses that are sought so hard are just wrong. When the words of a song speak more of how I feel about God instead of about who He is, there are massive issues.

I think I'm more offended by the "Jesus is my girlfriend" tone of so much of the new stuff.

And style does matter -- we had a "sister church" that was African-American, and their style was way different from ours, but we loved each other and worked together.

[mossrose]

I think I'm more offended by the "Jesus is my girlfriend" tone of so much of the new stuff.

Yuh. Icky-gooey yuck.

And style does matter -- we had a "sister church" that was African-American, and their style was way different from ours, but we loved each other and worked together.

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying here. I think you are saying that style, in this context, doesn't matter?

[KingsGambit]

I agree with you that the style of music doesn't really matter. It is the content of the lyrics that truly matters, and, in some respects, the way it is presented. I have nothing against a band or orchestra or an ensemble, but the raucous and, forgive me if this offends, the rock-style manner becomes more of a worldly entertainment that an opportunity to worship the character of God.

And, the emotional responses that are sought so hard are just wrong. When the words of a song speak more of how I feel about God instead of about who He is, there are massive issues.

I don't think this quite addresses why people have a problem with rock worship. African-American style gospel music is very upbeat, unquestionably entertaining (certainly more entertaining than modern rock worship), and presents emotional reactions. Some of its songs seem to have little to no theological content (i.e. Give Me That Old Time Religion has *no* theological content). Yet I have never heard anybody criticize or condemn the genre, though the same arguments would seem to hold.

[mossrose]

I don't think this quite addresses why people have a problem with rock worship. African-American style gospel music is very upbeat, unquestionably entertaining (certainly more entertaining than modern rock worship), and presents emotional reactions. Some of its songs seem to have little to no theological content (i.e. Give Me That Old Time Religion has *no* theological content). Yet I have never heard anybody criticize or condemn the genre, though the same arguments would seem to hold.

I personally don’t like the genre. For all the reasons you’ve listed.

[rogue06]

Because someone above mentioned the entire "style" of music as suspect, I want to clear one thing up: I dislike the music style of modern worship music. It attempts to mimic the style of what was popular in the 1970s... and from a pure musical perspective, does so very poorly. If you substituted the lyrics of modern worship songs for generic pop song lyrics, there would be no audience there, and the radio wouldn't play it. They're just not good.

I'm not the kind of person who thinks that it's inherently wrong to use any particular style of music, and I'm reluctant to criticize based on what is honestly just my subjective music preferences; it feels snobbish, and to import personal preferences over how other worship seems wrong. But I can't stand it myself.

So I stick to theology and there's generally quite a bit to criticize there.

For years the biggest complaint about modern Christian music had nothing to do with the messages they conveyed, but rather (with a couple of exceptions) it was just terrible. In many cases it was obvious they had a formula and were trying to shoehorn the songs into it -- usually without much success.

Now the problem has morphed into something more serious.

[Christianbookworm]

I'd lie to see those lyrics so we can play "spot the heresy".

[tabibito]

I'd lie to see those lyrics so we can play "spot the heresy".

It is a worthy thought.

[Cerebrum123]

I agree with you that the style of music doesn't really matter. It is the content of the lyrics that truly matters, and, in some respects, the way it is presented. I have nothing against a band or orchestra or an ensemble, but the raucous and, forgive me if this offends, the rock-style manner becomes more of a worldly entertainment that an opportunity to worship the character of God.

And, the emotional responses that are sought so hard are just wrong. When the words of a song speak more of how I feel about God instead of about who He is, there are massive issues.

I'm going to disagree partially here. The extent that emotional responses are sought is indeed an issue, but I see nothing wrong in principle with a song that deals with one's emotions towards God. Emotions are important, and neglecting them is problematic possibly as much as neglecting more objective issues.

[mossrose]

I'd lie to see those lyrics so we can play "spot the heresy".

This site lists a few.

http://pomomusings.com/2010/01/06/bad-praise-music/

Also

Crazy Beautiful by Chasen

Everybody’s been there everyone’s the same
but mostly we don’t care isn’t that a shame
We bring us down face after face
the inside is beautiful but the outside we want to change.
We want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Well every new year you say your gonna change
From the way you live to how much you weigh,
we don’t want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Take a look it’s all around you
See the world from different views
The way you shine from the inside
I know with out a doubt
It’s more than what you’ll be
In the world’s eyes.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s a approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are


There are lots out there if you do a search.

[tabibito]

This site lists a few.

http://pomomusings.com/2010/01/06/bad-praise-music/

Also

Crazy Beautiful by Chasen

Everybody’s been there everyone’s the same
but mostly we don’t care isn’t that a shame
We bring us down face after face
the inside is beautiful but the outside we want to change.
We want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Well every new year you say your gonna change
From the way you live to how much you weigh,
we don’t want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Take a look it’s all around you
See the world from different views
The way you shine from the inside
I know with out a doubt
It’s more than what you’ll be
In the world’s eyes.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s a approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are

So - was the song written by a 1960s flower child? What does it have to do with the gospel?

There are lots out there if you do a search.

But I'm afraid of finding more things like this.

[mossrose]

I'm going to disagree partially here. The extent that emotional responses are sought is indeed an issue, but I see nothing wrong in principle with a song that deals with one's emotions towards God. Emotions are important, and neglecting them is problematic possibly as much as neglecting more objective issues.

Well, there's emotion, and then there's ecstatic frenzy. The latter is what I was referring to.

[rogue06]

This site lists a few.

http://pomomusings.com/2010/01/06/bad-praise-music/

Also

Crazy Beautiful by Chasen

Everybody’s been there everyone’s the same
but mostly we don’t care isn’t that a shame
We bring us down face after face
the inside is beautiful but the outside we want to change.
We want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Well every new year you say your gonna change
From the way you live to how much you weigh,
we don’t want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Take a look it’s all around you
See the world from different views
The way you shine from the inside
I know with out a doubt
It’s more than what you’ll be
In the world’s eyes.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s a approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are


There are lots out there if you do a search.

My eyes glazed over a third of the way down while reading this pap.

Not to mention it sounds more like what you would hear coming from a drum circle than a church.

[mossrose]

So - was the song written by a 1960s flower child? What does it have to do with the gospel?

Exactly!

But I'm afraid of finding more things like this.

I was just giving cbw an example of the dross that’s out there. You don’t have to look if you don’t want to. I feel the same way about spiders.

[rogue06]

I was just giving cbw an example of the dross that’s out there. You don’t have to look if you don’t want to. I feel the same way about spiders catfish.

FIFY cuz its troo

[mossrose]

This is a pretty good article. I haven’t looked deeply into this guy’s theology but the article is on point.

https://pastorunlikely.com/worship-m...tered-worship/

1. Realize there is a difference between Christian music and Worship Music — I love a lot of the Christian music that is being played on the radio these days. It is great to listen to and there are some super talented people out there. It is not all appropriate for church though. I really enjoy the band NeedtoBreathe for example and they have some good themes to their music — but it is simply not worship music. If you have to try to struggle to see Jesus in a song, save it for outside of church. Pick music that is focused on God, not self and says good things about God.
2. When in doubt, sing Scripture – There are some great songs that have been written throughout church history that are taken directly from the Bible. If you are doubting the music that you have been singing, test them against the Bible and see if they hold up. If they are directly out of the Bible you can’t go wrong.
3. Pay attention to lyrics — Though there are some melodies that just move you and people may enjoy the uber-popular song of the time being played at church, make sure that the lyrics are focused on God and His glory. We take ownership of the music when we sing along, it is important that we know what we are singing and agree.
4. Ditch the angst — Our struggle is important to us and can be a part of the music, but if we are just singing about how lost we were it really does not amount to worship. Glorify God and then glorify God some more! I love songs that make me remember how lost I was, but they should never leave me there or wallow in the struggle. It is always about God’s glory.
5. Exalt the Lord — The attention of the song should be on God and how great He is – you may say the same thing in 10 different ways but sing about how great God is. If you want to add in the angst here about how much we stink as a point of comparison, that is fine, but don’t spend too much time there. It is about God and God alone.
6. Choose the style that works for you — I love Contemporary Christian music. I really dislike traditional Gospel for the most part. I like a lot of hymns. All are great ways to worship the Lord and unless we are singing in Psalms in Aramaic are not exactly what the early church did. Find what you like among the styles and enjoy it — then sing your heart out to the Lord. God never tells us that we can only worship through ancient Greek rap solos.
7. Don’t put too much stock in the song writers/singers — There are some Christian worship groups out there that I find questionable in their doctrine and would likely never attend their church. That doesn’t make the songs good or bad. If the lyrics are sound and the originators are not a distraction, then have at it.
8. If it sounds like Creed, it probably shouldn’t be in church — I know I said that different styles are ok, but again there are plenty of songs that I like that simply do not belong in worship. I have listened to Third Day for years and they have a ton of good worship songs. They also have Southern Rock songs that should stay in the pick up truck while you are doing air guitar — or is that just me?
9. Choose the Holy to lead, not the talented – You may have two choices to sing in worship – one who sings wonderfully and is lukewarm and the other whose singing is lukewarm and is on fire for Christ. Choose the one on fire for Christ and let God take care of the details why it will work out.
10. Love and support your worship leaders — It is a tough job, they need it just as much as anyone else in the Body.
11. Always fake an Australian accent to sound relevant — just kidding mate!