Originally posted by Cow Poke
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orthodox Christians only.
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Women in Authority - scripturally defensible.
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Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThere seems, to me, to be a whole lot of work taking place to justify a woman being the head - or lead pastor - of a Church. In my experience, that's part and parcel of a whole package of other "let's do it this way instead of the Bible way", including same sex 'marriage', same sex 'clergy', etc...
The "big picture" of spiritual leadership is that the man is to be the head of the home, Christ is to be the Head of the Church, and a man is to be the pastor of a church. That we have to go to extremes to find exceptions or justifications for an alternative is, for me, a bit troubling.
There are plenty of 'churches' out there that will allow a woman to be 'pastor', as well as a whole range of other 'allowances'. (Even a BAPTIST Church that ordained a trans-gendered 'pastor' who left his family and 'came out' as a lesbian".
But fear not!!!! Dinosaurs like me will soon no longer be roaming the planet, and people will do what people will do!
But make no mistake about THIS ---- I have enjoyed the interchange.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJust one more thought.... (for now)
That something has to be "spiritually defensible" is somewhat of a red flag for me --- as opposed to "spiritually ordained" or supported or indicated or commanded....
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
I think you meant "Scripturally defensible," assuming you're referring to the thread title.
And I think tabito may have borrowed my usage from a post in the SBC thread.
It depends on the situation. For something like the deity of Christ, I don't believe the contrary view can be reasonably defended from Scripture.
But on the topic at hand, I believe support can be marshaled on both sides. I find the egalitarian case stronger, but I would hesitate to declare it "the" Biblical view.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
So you believe in so-called "Eternal Subordination of the Son" (ESS)? That's a controversial topic still being hashed out. I'm sure others are much more informed about it than I.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostThat's a common objection. But some denominations -- the AG and Foursquare come most readily to mind -- have accepted (but not always promoted) women in all ministry positions for about a hundred years without yielding to "same sex" stuff. They never viewed it as being "instead of" what the Bible said.
To me, this makes the fallen state normative where it should not be. I don't believe there was any hierarchy until the Fall; the original "created order" was one of equal partnership. Everything under the Obsolete Covenant still assumed the fallen condition. While certainly *many* things will not be as they should until the Lord returns, I believe some things, especially relationships, are supposed to be different among us who are "new creations" in a New Covenant.
I'm sure. Unlike the issue at hand, where there are Scriptural arguments both pro and con, I'm not aware of any "pro" arguments w.r.t. LGBT.
Don't act like the discussion is over.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
That is one area that people don't agree on. Are you allowed to do it unless the Bible explicitly forbids it or do you not do it unless the Bible explicitly allows it. Unfortunately for us, there is a lot of grey in the Bible where you can't quite apply either rule. This seems to apply to this thread as well.
A) Those things God's Word says specifically NOT to do
2) Those things God's Word says specifically TO DO
C) Those things which don't really have spiritual significance - like what color shirt I wear.
And, of course, those things where we see a pattern in the Bible to which a notable exception needs to be made to justify the decision.
We see no example in Scripture where leadership for a congregation or church or group of people is granted to a female. We only have instances where it could be surmised.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
I think you meant "Scripturally defensible," assuming you're referring to the thread title.
And I think tabito may have borrowed my usage from a post in the SBC thread.
It depends on the situation. For something like the deity of Christ, I don't believe the contrary view can be reasonably defended from Scripture. But on the topic at hand, I believe support can be marshaled on both sides. I find the egalitarian case stronger, but I would hesitate to declare it "the" Biblical view.
I've been using "scripturally defensible" for quite a time, as a short-hand term for "the matter is not satisfactorily resolved by reference to scripture, which makes it adiaphora," that is, "a matter upon which Christians may legitimately disagree." Hence, the opposing viewpoint may not be declared wrong.
Argument that women may not hold leadership positions is one that I encountered during my first forays into Christian chats, and equating support for women priests to support for gay priests along with it (back then LGBTQ+ wasn't a thing - though I think LGB might have been.) My response, then as now; "the Bible does not declare womanhood to be a sin."
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Well, yeah, but they're just weird.
Not sure how you can see it that way, as God created man first, then created for him "an helpmate". And, yes, I'm familiar with the argument that this does not mean "inferior", nor do I believe Eve was "inferior".
In ch. 1, there is no distinction between man and woman in terms of bearing the image of God, nor in their status as His vice-regents tasked to subdue and rule the earth.
In ch. 2, where you see "helpmate," I see "suitable partner" (CEV) or even "strong ally" (Bartlett, Men and Women in Christ, consistent with the way "ezer" is often, or even usually, used in the OT).
There is no hierarchy implied in the text until ch. 3, where it is presented as an unfortunate consequence of the Fall.
They're workin on that, I'm sure.
As long as it's friendly.
Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Yeah, I place decisions in, basically, three categories....
A) Those things God's Word says specifically NOT to do
2) Those things God's Word says specifically TO DO
C) Those things which don't really have spiritual significance - like what color shirt I wear.
And, of course, those things where we see a pattern in the Bible to which a notable exception needs to be made to justify the decision.
We see no example in Scripture where leadership for a congregation or church or group of people is granted to a female. We only have instances where it could be surmised.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Meh --- I believe that Jesus, as a human on the planet, subjected Himself to the Father, to the Cross, to God's plan for Redemption... But I do believe that the three persons of the Trinity get along just fine.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
A lady not so long ago said that she was committed to her church, but found it disappointing that women are prohibited from roles as priests and elders, much more the archbishop. I responded that her aim was too short, she should be aiming for prophet or apostle, rather than the lowly ranks of priest or even archbishop. Our lecturer wasn't exactly gruntled: not sure why - but the look on his face made words unnecessary.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
I think some in the "complementarian" camp argue that Jesus is eternally subordinated to the Father, and use that as justification for subordination of women (or at least wives). This has invited a charge of theological novelty and/or Arianism heresy, and some attempts to redefine what subordination within the Trinity might mean. But it's really quite beyond me. I'd have to have a *much* better grasp of it to accuse someone of heresy.
As Thomas Torrance notes,
Theologians have been willing to go to great exegetical lengths to reconcile large portions of scripture with their understanding of God’s metaphysical attributes. Hence, any scripture that ascribed change or suffering to God was typically interpreted to depict God as he appears to us, not as he actually is.[1]
[1] Gregory A Boyd. The Crucifixion of the Warrior God: Interpreting the Old Testament’s Violent Portraits of God in the Light of the Cross Volumes 1&2 (sample). (Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2017), KL 679-681
Last edited by tabibito; 06-29-2021, 06:34 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostWe also do not see any clear places where it is forbidden.
Again, the model God gave us for the family is that men are the heads of households, and one of the qualifications for elder is that he manage his household well.
The Scriptural support, such as it is, for a woman to be a pastor or elder is really shaky.
So far, I've seen nothing that gives me comfort (from Scripture) that women in the main role of leadership of a local church is acceptable.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostI think some in the "complementarian" camp argue that Jesus is eternally subordinated to the Father, and use that as justification for subordination of women (or at least wives). This has invited a charge of theological novelty and/or Arianism heresy, and some attempts to redefine what subordination within the Trinity might mean. But it's really quite beyond me. I'd have to have a *much* better grasp of it to accuse someone of heresy.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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