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What do you do when you realize the Pharisee is you?

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  • What do you do when you realize the Pharisee is you?

    The title says it all.

    (Not interested in a derail about how modern Bible scholarship has found that the Pharisees aren't quite what people assume. I'm talking about how Christians generally understand the term in common discussion.)
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    It hasn't happened to me yet, as I understand the reference. You?

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm likely considerably harder on myself when I detect any sort of hypocrisy (assuming this is what you mean by the common Christian definition) than virtually anyone else would be. And yes, it happens.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #4
        When that happens to me, I just thank God I am not like you other people and tax collectors.


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          I'm likely considerably harder on myself when I detect any sort of hypocrisy (assuming this is what you mean by the common Christian definition) than virtually anyone else would be. And yes, it happens.
          I've always thought of Pharisees as being legalists, foremost. Like, they would be the first to freak out if you milked your cow on Sabbath.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            The title says it all.

            (Not interested in a derail about how modern Bible scholarship has found that the Pharisees aren't quite what people assume. I'm talking about how Christians generally understand the term in common discussion.)
            Well, the only correct answer is to repent and turn from your Pharisaical ways. I've been blessed to have been around many non-judgmental people so, I didn't pick up the habit too badly when I became a Christian....also, I understood where I had been without God and where I was with Him. Lastly, I've worked in Prison Ministry for the last 16 years with an ecumenical group. That will change your perspective immensely.
            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ronson View Post

              I've always thought of Pharisees as being legalists, foremost. Like, they would be the first to freak out if you milked your cow on Sabbath.
              This is what I had in mind. And I'll make myself look bad, I don't mind.

              To make it personal, I was thinking about some of my past posts on here where I said that I don't think Christians have any business watching most movies/TV shows because the early Christians abstained from the theater. I recognized that while Christians should show discernment, I was taking things way to broadly and putting burdens on others that may not have been necessary. I sat down the other day to watch a movie for one of the first times in years (The Godfather) and I realized that my past self would have been coming down on that because it's an R rated movie (not a particularly offensive movie by modern standards, but digress), but that it's an arbitrary definition.

              I was also thinking about this post I made yesterday: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e2#post1266358

              I'll be honest, the first thought I had was "why is she wearing that? That looks like something a streetwalker would wear." But somebody else in the post pointed out that while the shorts are short, it's little different from swimwear. And looking at it from a more detached perspective, I didn't like what I was turning into by thinking that.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                This is what I had in mind. And I'll make myself look bad, I don't mind.

                To make it personal, I was thinking about some of my past posts on here where I said that I don't think Christians have any business watching most movies/TV shows because the early Christians abstained from the theater. I recognized that while Christians should show discernment, I was taking things way to broadly and putting burdens on others that may not have been necessary. I sat down the other day to watch a movie for one of the first times in years (The Godfather) and I realized that my past self would have been coming down on that because it's an R rated movie (not a particularly offensive movie by modern standards, but digress), but that it's an arbitrary definition.
                Standards change, for better and worse. It was once considered acceptable punishment to flog a person for many different infractions. As far as entertainment, this statement from Frank Sinatra in 1957 about rock & roll is interesting:

                “My only deep sorrow is the unrelenting insistence of recording and motion picture companies upon purveying the most brutal, ugly, degenerate, vicious form of expression it has been my displeasure to hear — Naturally I refer to the bulk of rock ’n’ roll. It fosters almost totally negative and destructive reactions in young people. It smells phony and false. It is sung, played and written for the most part by cretinous goons and by means of its almost imbecilic reiterations and sly, lewd—in plain fact, dirty—lyrics, and as I said before, it manages to be the martial music of every sideburned delinquent on the face of the earth … this rancid-smelling aphorodisiac I deplore.”


                Sinatra completely changed his mind about it as society and standards changed. Was he right in 1957? I suppose it keeps me from judging others as much as I can.

                I was also thinking about this post I made yesterday: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e2#post1266358

                I'll be honest, the first thought I had was "why is she wearing that? That looks like something a streetwalker would wear." But somebody else in the post pointed out that while the shorts are short, it's little different from swimwear. And looking at it from a more detached perspective, I didn't like what I was turning into by thinking that.
                I'm not familiar with that event. But we do have zoning laws to keep things in their proper places. According to the sensibilities of most people, a bikini is OK at the beach but not in a restaurant. Everyone draws lines in different places. An amusement park? Hmmm ...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                  This is what I had in mind. And I'll make myself look bad, I don't mind.

                  To make it personal, I was thinking about some of my past posts on here where I said that I don't think Christians have any business watching most movies/TV shows because the early Christians abstained from the theater. I recognized that while Christians should show discernment, I was taking things way to broadly and putting burdens on others that may not have been necessary. I sat down the other day to watch a movie for one of the first times in years (The Godfather) and I realized that my past self would have been coming down on that because it's an R rated movie (not a particularly offensive movie by modern standards, but digress), but that it's an arbitrary definition.

                  I was also thinking about this post I made yesterday: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e2#post1266358

                  I'll be honest, the first thought I had was "why is she wearing that? That looks like something a streetwalker would wear." But somebody else in the post pointed out that while the shorts are short, it's little different from swimwear. And looking at it from a more detached perspective, I didn't like what I was turning into by thinking that.
                  I enjoy the Godfather flicks, and I enjoyed The Sopranos. For me, the issues are not the profanity or nudity or extreme violence. For me, the nettlesome aspect is that those shows put the viewer in the position of rooting for bad guys. Not rough-edged good guys, not "anti-heroes" of some degree of moral ambiguity. You're in the position of rooting for one group of vicious sociopaths against others.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Nationalist.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                    I've always thought of Pharisees as being legalists, foremost. Like, they would be the first to freak out if you milked your cow on Sabbath.
                    Pharisees are typically seen as self-righteous, legalistic hypocrites so I guess it's take your pick.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      The title says it all.

                      (Not interested in a derail about how modern Bible scholarship has found that the Pharisees aren't quite what people assume. I'm talking about how Christians generally understand the term in common discussion.)
                      I'm more curious about what's in your parenthesis. I must be out of the loop. What did they find? Give me a citation or link or something and I'll research it on my own.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

                        This is what I had in mind. And I'll make myself look bad, I don't mind.

                        To make it personal, I was thinking about some of my past posts on here where I said that I don't think Christians have any business watching most movies/TV shows because the early Christians abstained from the theater. I recognized that while Christians should show discernment, I was taking things way to broadly and putting burdens on others that may not have been necessary. I sat down the other day to watch a movie for one of the first times in years (The Godfather) and I realized that my past self would have been coming down on that because it's an R rated movie (not a particularly offensive movie by modern standards, but digress), but that it's an arbitrary definition.

                        I was also thinking about this post I made yesterday: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e2#post1266358

                        I'll be honest, the first thought I had was "why is she wearing that? That looks like something a streetwalker would wear." But somebody else in the post pointed out that while the shorts are short, it's little different from swimwear. And looking at it from a more detached perspective, I didn't like what I was turning into by thinking that.
                        We all have those moments. The problem is when you get locked in to such ways of thinking. You don't look bad by changing your stance when someone points something out like that.

                        My answer would be that of rogue06 and LittleJoe. Even more so than most I know I tend to be my own worst critic in everything.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Looking up the scripture where Jesus said the Pharisees were like white-washed tombs full of dead men's bones, I noticed that Matthew 23 gives many examples of the characteristics of a Pharisee. Like with any sin it is an ugly thing to discover those characteristics in ourselves. We repent, change our minds for the better with abhorrence for the sin in us and ask the Lord to change us, from the inside out. Then we receive forgiveness and believe we are forgiven and move forward.

                          Matthew 23:1-33

                          23 Then Jesus said to the multitudes and to His disciples,

                          2 The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat [of authority].

                          3 So observe and practice all they tell you; but do not do what they do, for they preach, but do not practice.

                          4 They tie up heavy loads, hard to bear, and place them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves will not lift a finger to help bear them.

                          5 They do all their works to be seen of men; for they make wide their phylacteries ([a]small cases enclosing certain Scripture passages, worn during prayer on the left arm and forehead) and make long their fringes [worn by all male Israelites, according to the command].

                          6 And they [b]take pleasure in and [thus] love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues,

                          7 And to be greeted with honor in the marketplaces and to have people call them rabbi.

                          8 But you are not to be called rabbi (teacher), for you have one Teacher and you are all brothers.

                          9 And do not call anyone [in the church] on earth father, for you have one Father, Who is in heaven.

                          10 And you must not be called masters (leaders), for you have one Master (Leader), the Christ.

                          11 He who is greatest among you shall be your servant.

                          12 Whoever exalts himself [[c]with haughtiness and empty pride] shall be humbled (brought low), and whoever humbles himself [whoever has a modest opinion of himself and behaves accordingly] shall be [d]raised to honor.

                          13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces; for you neither enter yourselves, nor do you allow those who are about to go in to do so.

                          14 [e]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you swallow up widows’ houses and for a pretense to cover it up make long prayers; therefore you will receive the greater condemnation and the heavier sentence.

                          15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you travel over sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes one [a proselyte], you make him doubly as much a child of hell (Gehenna) as you are.

                          16 Woe to you, blind guides, who say, If anyone swears by the [f]sanctuary of the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the [g]sanctuary, he is a debtor [bound by his oath].

                          17 You blind fools! For which is greater: the gold, or the [h]sanctuary of the temple that has made the gold sacred?

                          18 You say too, Whoever swears by the altar is not duty bound; but whoever swears by the offering on the altar, his oath is binding.

                          19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar which makes the gift sacred?

                          20 So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.

                          21 And he who swears by the [i]sanctuary of the temple swears by it and by Him Who dwells in it.

                          22 And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by Him Who sits upon it.

                          23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you give a tenth of your mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected and omitted the weightier (more important) matters of the Law—right and justice and mercy and fidelity. These you ought [particularly] to have done, without neglecting the others.

                          24 You blind guides, filtering out a gnat and gulping down a [j]camel!

                          25 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but within they are full of extortion (prey, spoil, plunder) and grasping self-indulgence.

                          26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and of the plate, so that the outside may be clean also.

                          27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you are like tombs that have been whitewashed, which look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything impure.

                          28 Just so, you also outwardly seem to people to be just and upright but inside you are full of pretense and lawlessness and iniquity.

                          29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous,

                          30 Saying, If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have aided them in shedding the blood of the prophets.

                          31 Thus you are testifying against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.

                          32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ sins to the brim [so [k]that nothing may be wanting to a full measure].

                          33 You serpents! You spawn of vipers! How can you escape the [l]penalty to be suffered in hell (Gehenna)?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            For me, being a Pharisee implies a lack of self-awareness. You genuinely think you're serving God when you're just self-deceived on the matter. I think there is a difference between being a Pharisee and recognizing that you fall short of the Christ's standard. I recognize a lot that I fall short of Christ's standard but I won't call myself a Pharisee because of it.

                            Possibly of more importance to me though, is the times I have failed to do something or say something for fear of being called a Pharisee. I have let the possible impression of what I was going to do stop me from doing it.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This thread is about me, isn't it?
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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