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Doesn't the Billy Graham rule professionally hurt women?

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  • Doesn't the Billy Graham rule professionally hurt women?

    My main issue with the so-called "Billy Graham rule" is that in an age where professional promotions are based upon connections more than ever, it puts women at an artificially imposed disadvantage to build these connections. This can cause women to question whether Christian ethics/the gospel are truly good news for them (which is a subject that apologists have spilled tons of ink already). Also, it seems to unfairly disadvantage women when it should be the men that are taking control over their own urges. Jesus basically came out and said that if you can't control yourself, you should castrate yourself, rather than placing the burden on others. I know it's hyperbole but the point remains - men should take control over their own thought lives. I don't see not cheating as something particularly difficult myself, speaking as somebody who has acted as a work trainer at several workplaces and thus had to spend time with quite a few people of the opposite sex in a professional capacity.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    I always thought folks like Pence followed that rule (assuming I'm speaking about the same thing) because of the potential for false accusations and bogus sexual harassment charges, not necessarily for lack of self-control. Kind of like when a nurse is usually present when a male doctor is examining a female patient -- for legal protection.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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    • #3
      Originally posted by seanD View Post
      I always thought folks like Pence followed that rule (assuming I'm speaking about the same thing) because of the potential for false accusations and bogus sexual harassment charges, not necessarily for lack of self-control. Kind of like when a nurse is usually present when a male doctor is examining a female patient -- for legal protection.
      I know that plays into it as well for many people, but at least around here it's more often been discussed in terms of personal virtue (see for example Nick's latest blog post about Ravi Z.)
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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      • #4
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

        I know that plays into it as well for many people, but at least around here it's more often been discussed in terms of personal virtue (see for example Nick's latest blog post about Ravi Z.)
        But how can you ever be sure of the intent behind the rule today, unless they openly express their intent? I can understand the fear as a male of being falsely accused or even having situations like that misinterpreted by others, necessitating a rule like that.
        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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        • #5
          Originally posted by seanD View Post

          But how can you ever be sure of the intent behind the rule today, unless they openly express their intent? I can understand the fear as a male of being falsely accused or even having situations like that misinterpreted by others, necessitating a rule like that.
          A number of people on this board have openly expressed that very intent, and that's what I'm looking to discuss. (Though the latter doesn't make sense through a modern progressive lens, as hypothetically, any adult regardless of sex is a potential partner of any other.)
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #6
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post

            I know that plays into it as well for many people, but at least around here it's more often been discussed in terms of personal virtue (see for example Nick's latest blog post about Ravi Z.)
            The secret is to have a trustworthy associate in an office next to, or across from, where you will be in an office with a woman to whom you're not married.
            I'm ALWAYS in view of my admin (or other person) when I have a woman in my office.

            I have been accused twice of sexual misconduct, and both times it was so obviously false, because there were witnesses.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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            • #7
              Originally posted by seanD View Post
              I always thought folks like Pence followed that rule (assuming I'm speaking about the same thing) because of the potential for false accusations and bogus sexual harassment charges, not necessarily for lack of self-control. Kind of like when a nurse is usually present when a male doctor is examining a female patient -- for legal protection.
              This is the main reason I've always heard.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Nationalist.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                I always thought folks like Pence followed that rule (assuming I'm speaking about the same thing) because of the potential for false accusations and bogus sexual harassment charges, not necessarily for lack of self-control. Kind of like when a nurse is usually present when a male doctor is examining a female patient -- for legal protection.
                Given the times we live in where women are often the boss and how "cougars" are treated by society at large as something laudable and to be emulated (TV series have been devoted to the premise), it might not be long before we start seeing the Billy Graham rule being applied to women as well.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Given the times we live in where women are often the boss and how "cougars" are treated by society at large as something laudable and to be emulated (TV series have been devoted to the premise), it might not be long before we start seeing the Billy Graham rule being applied to women as well.
                  A good (male) friend of mine was sexually harassed by a woman boss. It got so bad he went to HR, and the HR lady laughed at him and said something like "what red-blooded American man would NOT want her attention?"

                  As he was struggling with what to do about this, the woman boss's husband found out about an different affair she was having, and they got into such a big battle (even in the workplace) that the woman lost her job. My friend got promoted to her position.
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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                  • #10
                    So, no two adults together in private? And definitely not with a child or teen!
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      So, no two adults together in private? And definitely not with a child or teen!
                      It never occurred to us "back then" that the "Billy Graham rule" might need to apply to persons of the same sex, but.... how times have changed!
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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                      • #12
                        Applying it only to men meeting with women comes off as treating women as children to me. It takes two to tango and women can be the aggressor also. Look at what happen to Joseph! Would Potipher's wife have been sexually harrasing Joseph?
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Applying it only to men meeting with women comes off as treating women as children to me.
                          Times have changed - that USED to be the major problem - men abusing or taking advantage of women.

                          It takes two to tango and women can be the aggressor also. Look at what happen to Joseph! Would Potipher's wife have been sexually harrasing Joseph?
                          You realize, perhaps, that's not a 'pattern' in the Bible, eh?

                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            Times have changed - that USED to be the major problem - men abusing or taking advantage of women.

                            You realize, perhaps, that's not a 'pattern' in the Bible, eh?
                            While men's power to abuse is probably down, the culture is more sexualized than when Billy Graham published his rule. His rule needs to be updated to include all the possible combinations of men and women and how they can harass each other. Lots of workplaces now have dating and relationship rules for employees to try to head off harassment lawsuits.

                            Also consider how that people stepped out of Christian ministry because they had an emotional relationship with someone. In many cases, probably what is referred to as a work-spouse.

                            Women shouldn't be discriminated against professionally. However give the prevalence of sin, everyone needs rules to protect themselves.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                              While men's power to abuse is probably down, the culture is more sexualized than when Billy Graham published his rule. His rule needs to be updated to include all the possible combinations of men and women and how they can harass each other. Lots of workplaces now have dating and relationship rules for employees to try to head off harassment lawsuits.
                              Yes, sir. That's what I was saying.

                              Also consider how that people stepped out of Christian ministry because they had an emotional relationship with someone. In many cases, probably what is referred to as a work-spouse.

                              Women shouldn't be discriminated against professionally. However give the prevalence of sin, everyone needs rules to protect themselves.
                              And those of us who value our reputation, and, more importantly, our families, don't mind living within those rules.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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