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What do Christians need to believe in order to call themselves Christians?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
    I'm a minimalist concerning specific doctrines that someone must know and believe. But when someone comes to have faith(trust) in Christ, that person has encountered a change in nature. He or she has heard the Shepherd and come to him. This message comes through the sharing of the gospel.

    The person may not know much doctrine but is inclined to accept the true doctrines -- those of the type listed by Thoughtful Monk. Still, people can be stubborn and have wrong doctrine without losing their justified status.

    However, the church group (or denomination) needs to sufficiently adhere to the truths of the gospel to be effective and worthwhile. Usually when people come to Christ despite the doctrines preached, they will fall away from the group with the bad doctrine.

    I do advocate having group teaching and confessing of creeds and confessions -- at least the most basic ones. It is important to promote the right teachings in order to preserve the gospel.
    I agree there is an issue that church groups or denominations need to sufficiently adhere to the truths of the gospel. I wish people would fall away from these false groups faster.

    In my case, I was brought up in Presbyterian Church (USA). I left years ago as part of a church split. I gave up on thinking I would ever rejoin the denomination when I read about a PC(USA) pastor who denied the existence of God, divinity of Christ, etc. Not because of his beliefs. As far as I'm concerned, he can believe anything he wants. No, I gave up on PC(USA) when I realized they would never defrock him.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

    Comment


    • #17
      As others adequately put, the consensus achieved in 325 A.D. at the first Council of Nicea provides the codification of what constitutes a Christian, regardless of the plurality of churches that have taken place in the past 1700 years.


      Yes and yes to the second and third question.


      And Cow Poke also put it well. Once the creed is embraced, how then to act is just as important. Bearing fruit and all as testament if one is truly of Christ.
      Last edited by Andius; 10-09-2020, 05:47 PM.
      Ladino, Guatemalan, Hispanic, and Latin, but foremostly, Christian.
      As of the 1st of December, 2020, officially anointed as this:

      "Seinfeld had its Soup Nazi. Tweb has its Taco Nazi." - Rogue06 , https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...e3#post1210559

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

        Four Pastors of my church (and other members) have said they do not believe Jesus is the only way to God.

        The advice I have been given by other Christians is to fine another church, but I worry that maybe I can say something that will change their minds and if I don't I will let them down.
        You have presented a more specific situation now. Some people have gone to megachurches and found a small group with whom they have fellowship or bible studies. There can be peace within the storm. In Thoughtful Monk's case, he was not concerned singly about a pastor's views but was concerned about the broader organization. It does not seem possible to change the views of four pastors (out of how many pastors??). Usually after going through seminary, a person's views will pretty much be settled. (We can hear of pastors who admit privately that they do not believe in God. These pastors have made it through theological studies and ended up on such incongruent views.) So, you may not be equipped to change them, except by the grace of God. The choice may also depend whether these perspectives are publicly taught. Do these views become apparent in the weekly message?

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        • #19
          One thing I've learned over the years is to pay attention to what seminary a pastor has come out of. Two warning signs for me: on-line degree and Princeton Theological Cemetery.
          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

          Comment


          • #20
            Thanks Guys. Your comments have helped.

            My decision is when I hear someone say that Jesus is not the only way to God, is to tell them I disagree and quote Scriptures that back up my position, such as:

            Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14:6)

            “For I have not spoken on My own, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a command as to what I should say and what I should speak. 50 I know that His command is eternal life. So the things that I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.” (John 12:49-50)

            12 “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people, and we must be saved by it.” (Acts 4:12)



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            • #21
              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
              I'm a minimalist concerning specific doctrines that someone must know and believe. But when someone comes to have faith(trust) in Christ, that person has encountered a change in nature. He or she has heard the Shepherd and come to him. This message comes through the sharing of the gospel.

              The person may not know much doctrine but is inclined to accept the true doctrines -- those of the type listed by Thoughtful Monk. Still, people can be stubborn and have wrong doctrine without losing their justified status.

              However, the church group (or denomination) needs to sufficiently adhere to the truths of the gospel to be effective and worthwhile. Usually when people come to Christ despite the doctrines preached, they will fall away from the group with the bad doctrine.

              I do advocate having group teaching and confessing of creeds and confessions -- at least the most basic ones. It is important to promote the right teachings in order to preserve the gospel.
              The bolded portion reminds me of the sentiment expressed in the oft quoted maxim that is usually, although incorrectly, attributed to St. Augustine: In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas ("In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, diversity [some times "liberty" or "charity"]").

              While it does indeed appear to have been a view that Augustine held[1]] it seems to actually originate with the Catholic Archbishop of Spalato, Croatia (on the eastern shore of the Adriatic Sea), Marco Antonio Dominis in 1617. Shortly thereafter the Lutheran theologian Rupertus Meldenius (a.k.a. Peter Meiderlin) said essentially the same thing.

              The point being that there is plenty of room for differences of opinion on things that aren't a requisite to being a Christian, but for the bedrock pillars of the faith there should be unity among Christians.










              1. As can be seen by the following remark by Thomas Aquinas in his brilliant unfinished masterpiece, Summa Theologica (1274):
              "In discussing questions of this kind two rules are to be observed, as Augustine teaches. The first is, to hold to the truth of the Scripture without wavering. The second is that since Holy Scripture can be explained in a multiplicity of senses, one should adhere to a particular explanation only in such measure as to be ready to abandon it if it be proved with certainty to be false, lest Holy Scripture be exposed to the ridicule of unbelievers, and obstacles be placed to their believing."

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                One thing I've learned over the years is to pay attention to what seminary a pastor has come out of. Two warning signs for me: on-line degree and Princeton Theological Cemetery.
                Current one: Received his M. Div, Magna Cum Laude, from Drew Theological School.



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                • #23
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  The bolded portion reminds me of the sentiment expressed in the oft quoted maxim that is usually, although incorrectly, attributed to St. Augustine: In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas ("In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, diversity [some times "liberty" or "charity"]").

                  While it does indeed appear to have been a view that Augustine held[1]] it seems to actually originate with the Catholic Archbishop of Spalato, Croatia (on the eastern shore of the Adriatic Sea), Marco Antonio Dominis in 1617. Shortly thereafter the Lutheran theologian Rupertus Meldenius (a.k.a. Peter Meiderlin) said essentially the same thing.

                  The point being that there is plenty of room for differences of opinion on things that aren't a requisite to being a Christian, but for the bedrock pillars of the faith there should be unity among Christians.
                  We shall always have doctrinal differences. Some aspects of scripture are difficult to pinpoint and many doctrines are derivative from many passages. I find that many doctrines are correct even when the passage itself has been read in the wrong context.

                  The church organizations need to promote the fundamental doctrines but may differ on big issues which are not always critical. Cessationism is an issue that could have diversity of views without deviating from the central truths about the nature of the Godhead or our justification.

                  However, my point was focused primarily on the typical Christian who may have only a limited grasp of key doctrines and may even have wrong ideas. This is understandable and acceptable since we are not saved by doctrines but are justified by trust toward Jesus. A good example in scripture is where there were disciples of John who had not heard of the baptism of Christ. I think they were already justified because they had trust toward God. They were accepting of the details of Christ because their hearts already were filled with faith -- and recognized the voice of their Shepherd.

                  Some "layman" who misunderstands the Trinity can still be justified because the teaching is not always sufficient in this area. It may take much effort to change that person's mind but I think the true followers of Christ tend to accept the more accurate doctrine -- but still are okay if they don't quite grasp it. Yet, for example, if someone clings to the idea of Jesus as a demi-god, it may likely be that his heart never was accepting of the gospel.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                    My decision is when I hear someone say that Jesus is not the only way to God, is to tell them I disagree and quote Scriptures that back up my position,...
                    There is another way to God: Live a corrupt, wicked, immoral, blasphemous life. I guarantee that will get you to God. But then, WATCH OUT!!!
                    When I Survey....

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Faber View Post
                      There is another way to God: Live a corrupt, wicked, immoral, blasphemous life. I guarantee that will get you to God. But then, WATCH OUT!!!
                      It doesn't matter how you live, everyone gets to God eventually.
                      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                        Current one: Received his M. Div, Magna Cum Laude, from Drew Theological School.


                        I looked them up. They look like they would teach a social justice gospel. One word I saw in their about Drew pages was ecumenical. Not always a bad word but in this context suspicious.
                        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                          Scripture Verse: Matthew 7

                          21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post



                            John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
                            Scripture Verse: John 14-15

                            23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

                            5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

                            © Copyright Original Source

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                              I looked them up. They look like they would teach a social justice gospel. One word I saw in their about Drew pages was ecumenical. Not always a bad word but in this context suspicious.
                              I didn't tell you that he has a father who is a Jew. That fact is coloring his view of Jesus being the only way to God.

                              This same Pastor promoted Rob Bell's book, "Love Wins."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Christian3 View Post

                                I didn't tell you that he has a father who is a Jew. That fact is coloring his view of Jesus being the only way to God.

                                This same Pastor promoted Rob Bell's book, "Love Wins."
                                I'm not sure that his father being a Jew results in his coloring his view of Jesus being the only way to God. Of far more significance is his promoting Rob Bell's book. I rate your chances of bring change to him at zero. Of course, I'm a bit biased by my experiences where I'm zero for about five on my efforts to change or carve a niche within a church,

                                Also, it's interesting that I can't off the top of my read come up with a NT verse that says try to reach and reform a false teacher. The view seems to be they're dangerous and should be avoided.
                                "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                                "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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