Announcement

Collapse

Christianity 201 Guidelines

orthodox Christians only.

Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.

The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Baldie Vs Mariology

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
    To hear all prayers and the motivations of all the hearts behind these prayers requires omniscience.
    Do you need to know the motivation of someone's heart to pray for them when they ask you to do so? Of course not. Why should that be any different for the saints?
    There are several prayers in the Bible not rendered unto God and everyone of them was an act of worship. For example, in 1 Kings 18:26 the followers of Baal prayed " "O Baal, answer us." (NASB)

    Praying to Baal is worshiping Baal.
    Now you're being deliberately dense. Dulia is not latreia. The distinction does not go away because you ignore the former.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      Have you ever asked another person to pray for you? That's what you do in the Salve Regina. You ask Mary the mother of Jesus, to pray to her Son for you.

      Read the Salve Regina, what do you think?

      Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
      hail our life, our sweetness and our hope.
      To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
      to thee do we send up our sighs,
      mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
      Turn then, most gracious advocate,
      thine eyes of mercy toward us;
      and after this our exile,
      show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
      O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
      ℣ Pray for us O holy Mother of God,
      ℟ that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
      Let us pray:
      Almighty, everlasting God, who by the co-operation of the Holy Spirit didst prepare the body and soul of the glorious Virgin-Mother Mary to become a dwelling-place meet for thy Son: grant that as we rejoice in her commemoration; so by her fervent intercession we may be delivered from present evils and from everlasting death. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
      That's why "I" am not among the "you" who would say Salve Regina. The Bible does not encourage us to think of Mary as a queen, but as a servant. To think that Mary's prayers could make us worthy of the promises of Christ is the worst sort of co-medatricial claptrap. To whatever extent Mary is aware of what's going on down here on earth in her name, I am sure she is horrified.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
        I think you and I agree on the importance of epistemic questions, however why is the shortness relevant? All the really salient quotes that teaches say the depravity of humanity, as Calvinists consider it, can be written on the back of your forearm. We don't need to know all that much about Mary, because her life is centered around her Son, and the gospels are about Him. However if you want a full and consistent Christian worldview, I think you and I agree that you can't skip anything. Mary is important, in fact of all the believers she played the most pivotal role, by allowing God's plan of salvation to come into fruition. We can construct counterfactuals about what would have happened if John or James had also gone the way of Judas, but what sort of history of salvation would you construct without Mary? Jesus couldn't just materialise without being born, that would diminish his humanity.

        She got to carry Christ in her womb, deliver Him, nurse and suckle Him, teach him how to walk as well as wisdom ("And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." - Luke 2:52). Its fitting that God would make a woman who would be able to fulfill this role. That could only have been a gift of grace to her. And then finally at the cross, Christ told John that she was to be his mother from now on. Catholics and Orthodox have taken that as a deeper declaration, that she's the spiritual mother of all believers. Otherwise he might as well have told John to take care of her.

        And I think I disagree with you that all we have about her is from the gospels. Pretty much all of the New Testament is modelled on the Old; spiritual purity and human uncleanliness before God is indicated in the purity laws and the holiness of the temple (the individual bodies would in time become the temple); Judgement Day is foreshadowed in the flood of Noah and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah; baptism has its foreshadowing in the delivery of the slaves of Egypt when they walked through the ocean; Christ's death of the cross and the need of his blood for salvation in the rituals of slaughter of lambs; the Ark of the covenant which carried the sacred law inside of it... that seems a foreshadowing of Mary, who carried The Word within her, and also of her importance.

        This isn't a full formal analysis, but in light of this summary, its hard for me to see how a protestant Christian is justified in spending 99% of his time when talking about holy Christians in the bible, talking about Paul the Apostle, and the other 1% of time talking about how unimportant Mary is.
        Protestants only talk about Mary's unimportance in the face of biblically unsupportable claims that assign her too much importance; see the Salve Regina example. The New Testament specifically discusses Judgment day, the Flood, and the lives of Abraham and Lot, explaining their significance in the full light of Christ. All the New Testament has to say about the Ark of the Covenant is, "Of these things we cannot now speak in detail." (Hebrews 9:5) You may enjoy making a typological connection between Mary and the Ark, but the NT itself (1) never makes such a connection, nor (2) views the Ark as an important component of New Covenant life. The importance of the OT temple was that God's shekinah glory dwelt above the Ark within the Holy of Holies, showing that God was with his people and would forgive their sins. But now the Spirit of Christ dwells within his people, who are corporately thus the temple. We do not need the kapporeth of the Ark, because the blood of Christ has covered all our sins. The fulfillment of the Ark is not Mary, but Christ. Christ fulfills every aspect of the OT ceremonial system: the temple, the priests, the sacrifices, the showbread, the lights, all of it.

        If Mary is worthy of intense devotion and prolonged contemplation because she was vital as the mother of Christ, then so was her own mother, and her mother's mother, all the way back to Eve. If any of them had not existed, Jesus would not have existed. But I don't find such counterfactuals helpful, because within God's providence, all of them existed. The last link in a chain is not more important than the first one; they function or fail together.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
          That's why "I" am not among the "you" who would say Salve Regina. The Bible does not encourage us to think of Mary as a queen, but as a servant. To think that Mary's prayers could make us worthy of the promises of Christ is the worst sort of co-medatricial claptrap. To whatever extent Mary is aware of what's going on down here on earth in her name, I am sure she is horrified.
          You misunderstand. The idea is decidedly not that her prayers could make us worthy, but that she intercede with God (as we also do) for his grace so that he will make us worthy. Note the theological passive that you left out of your paraphrase: "Pray for us O holy Mother of God,℟ that we may be made worthy [by God and his grace] of the promises of Christ."

          Note also: "... Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen."

          That said, as you know, I too am critical of some extremes in Marian devotion.
          Last edited by robrecht; 02-26-2014, 02:06 PM.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
            You're right - as Spartacus helpfully pointed out - that its not strictly necessary. I'm arguing from Original Sin being inherited actually being the case, that Adam collectively represented humanity, and in sinning by eating the fruit with, we're all collectively guilty of that.
            Understood. I'm not sure that this is how things actually work though.

            I think I spoke a bit too quickly in that post, but if Christ had to be born to a sinful woman... then in some sense of the word he would have be saved from sin himself. Mary was saved from sin, she neither earned it or deserved it, this was a gift given to her. In some sense she was also saved by the works of her Son, because without Him, she would have fallen as well.
            It's the first sentence I take issue with. How exactly does being born sinless, to someone who sins, equate to having been "saved" from sin?

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by RBerman View Post
              ... If Mary is worthy of intense devotion and prolonged contemplation because she was vital as the mother of Christ, then so was her own mother, and her mother's mother, all the way back to Eve. ...
              For Roman Catholics, this issue is obviated by the Immaculate Conception, a very beautiful doctrine teaching about the perfection of humanity achieved by God's grace through the merits of Christ.

              That said, we do also honor the mother and father of Mary, Joachim and Anne.
              Last edited by robrecht; 02-26-2014, 01:57 PM.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                It's the first sentence I take issue with. How exactly does being born sinless, to someone who sins, equate to having been "saved" from sin?
                There's an old analogy that I happen to remember well:

                A man falls into a pit. Another man comes along and pulls him out. This second man has therefore saved the first.

                A woman is walking along and would have fallen into the pit, but this second man stops her from falling in. This woman was therefore also saved.

                In this metaphor, the pit is sin, the first man is all of us, the second is Christ. The woman is Mary, who though she did not fall into sin, was nonetheless saved from it.
                Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  You misunderstand. The idea is decidedly not that her prayers could make us worthy, but that she intercede with God (as we also do) for his grace so that he will make us worthy. Note the theological passive that you left out of your paraphrase: "Pray for us O holy Mother of God,℟ that we may be made worthy [by God and his grace] of the promises of Christ."

                  Note also: "... Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen."

                  That said, as you know, I too am critical of some extremes in Marian devotion.

                  Your parenthetical [by God and his grace] would be much better stated; it's not at all hard to read the prayer as if Mary is the one who does the worthy-making. And really, the emphasis on worth seems wrong-headed. Our lack of worth is the whole point of the work of Christ. We should not pray to be worthy of anything. We should thank God that Christ is worthy, and that we are joined to Christ by faith, rather than any thought of our own worthiness for anything.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                    There's an old analogy that I happen to remember well:

                    A man falls into a pit. Another man comes along and pulls him out. This second man has therefore saved the first.

                    A woman is walking along and would have fallen into the pit, but this second man stops her from falling in. This woman was therefore also saved.

                    In this metaphor, the pit is sin, the first man is all of us, the second is Christ. The woman is Mary, who though she did not fall into sin, was nonetheless saved from it.
                    That's not something I dispute. Leonhard said that if Christ was born to a woman with sin, he would have been in some sense need to be "saved" from sin Himself. I think I worded my post wrongly though. My bad.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                      Your parenthetical [by God and his grace] would be much better stated; it's not at all hard to read the prayer as if Mary is the one who does the worthy-making. And really, the emphasis on worth seems wrong-headed. Our lack of worth is the whole point of the work of Christ. We should not pray to be worthy of anything. We should thank God that Christ is worthy, and that we are joined to Christ by faith, rather than any thought of our own worthiness for anything.
                      In my experience, Catholics do not misunderstand this prayer. Some things are so obvious they need not be said in every sentence. Note also: "... Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen."
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        For Roman Catholics, this issue is obviated by the Immaculate Conception, a very beautiful doctrine teaching about the perfection of humanity achieved by God's grace through the merits of Christ. That said, we do also honor the mother and father of Mary, Joachim and Anne.
                        I have several concerns with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, not least its absence from the Bible. But that gets back to our basic differences in spiritual authorities. Anyway, the doctrine as stated seems either inadequate or redundant. If Jesus could not be perfect without having a perfect mother, then the same logic would have to apply to both of Mary's parents, generating a chain once again back to Adam and Eve. But if Mary could be immaculately conceived from non-immaculate parents, then so too could Jesus, and her own immaculate conception is unnecessary. Not that God couldn't have done it that way; God can do whatever pleases him. But there's no theosophical need or even expectation for God to have done it that way, as is sometimes suggested.

                        It's always seemed pretty straightforward to me that the adulation of the Virgin Mary is a Christianization of ancient impulses toward virgin deities like Athena and especially Diana, whose cult is well documented in the book of Acts.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          In my experience, Catholics do not misunderstand this prayer. Some things are so obvious they need not be said in every sentence. Note also: "... Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen."
                          The over-adulation you identified with respect to Mary suggests otherwise. Especially for the European audience, a Queen is a sovereign.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                            The over-adulation you identified with respect to Mary suggests otherwise. Especially for the European audience, a Queen is a sovereign.
                            I'm fairly certain that the King's mother can also be referred to as "Queen."
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                              That's why "I" am not among the "you" who would say Salve Regina. The Bible does not encourage us to think of Mary as a queen, but as a servant.
                              If a believer wishes to be great in Heaven, what should she be?

                              To think that Mary's prayers could make us worthy of the promises of Christ is the worst sort of co-medatricial claptrap.
                              Do you ever ask anyone else to pray for you? If yes why?

                              We don't think that anyone's prayers are deterministic in causing God to do anything. There is a profound mystery between God's timelessness, His omniscience, His sovereignty and our supplications.

                              However its also clearly taught in the Bible that God listens especially to the prayers of a rightious person. God never does anything against His will and these people have a closer understanding of it.

                              Mary asked Jesus to turn water into wine because she knew he would do it.

                              To whatever extent Mary is aware of what's going on down here on earth in her name, I am sure she is horrified.
                              This an opinion which reflects your calvinistic presuppositions, if you can tell why its okay for you to ask someone on this forum to pray for you, but not the Holy Saints who are unified with God in Heaven and are now completely sinless, I want to know.

                              I do think Mary is horrified by anything that takes away glory from her Son. However the way veneration of Mary is set up, its ultimately about her Son. The Rosary is a meditation on Christs life, death and resurrection; Salve Regina is a petition for her intercession for us before Christ; Hail Mary is a biblical salutation to her, and a petition for her intercession again.

                              How does honoring Mary make her Son smaller?

                              The New Testament specifically discusses Judgment day, the Flood, and the lives of Abraham and Lot, explaining their significance in the full light of Christ. All the New Testament has to say about the Ark of the Covenant is, "Of these things we cannot now speak in detail." (Hebrews 9:5) You may enjoy making a typological connection between Mary and the Ark, but the NT itself (1) never makes such a connection, nor (2) views the Ark as an important component of New Covenant life. The importance of the OT temple was that God's shekinah glory dwelt above the Ark within the Holy of Holies, showing that God was with his people and would forgive their sins. But now the Spirit of Christ dwells within his people, who are corporately thus the temple. We do not need the kapporeth of the Ark, because the blood of Christ has covered all our sins. The fulfillment of the Ark is not Mary, but Christ. Christ fulfills every aspect of the OT ceremonial system: the temple, the priests, the sacrifices, the showbread, the lights, all of it.
                              You make some fair points here, I'll need to check up on them before getting back to you.

                              If Mary is worthy of intense devotion and prolonged contemplation because she was vital as the mother of Christ, then so was her own mother, and her mother's mother, all the way back to Eve.
                              All saintly patriarchs are venerated as Saints in Heaven, and are prayed to for their supplications. St. Joachim and St. Anne's have a feast day on the 26th of July.

                              However in order for Mary to be saved from the stain of Original Sin, its not nescessary that her parents were. Her stainlessness is still the greatest grace any believer has ever been bestowed. Her role is unique in the things she got to do and her relationship to Christ.

                              If any of them had not existed, Jesus would not have existed. But I don't find such counterfactuals helpful, because within God's providence, all of them existed.
                              Agreed.

                              The last link in a chain is not more important than the first one; they function or fail together.
                              I disagree with this. You're right that qua being later than others you're not more important. But we're not given equal gifts and talents, or use them equally well and I doubt the reward in Heaven will be the same for all. Its made clear that the people who gave up more, suffered with Christ, believed fervently, and loved deeply, will have great treasure in Heaven.

                              Mary loved her Son, followed Him with devotion during His passion and suffered greatly (which Simeon predicted she would). She was shown a foretaste of Christ's resurrection when he disappeared for three days before Joseph and Mary found Him again, and kept that in her heart.

                              I don't think St. Anna did anything like that, except legend has it that she suffered childlessness for a long time until her husband fasted for forty days.

                              So while I'm certainly not denigrating St Anna's importance to the plan of salvation and her holiness, I think her daughter was greater than she.

                              St Anna didn't get to see Christ during her life, but Mary had a more intimate relationship with Christ during her life than anyone else would ever have.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                I'm fairly certain that the King's mother can also be referred to as "Queen."
                                Depends on the country. In England she's the "Queen Mother." In such cases, she's understood to have special access by virtue of her person, and thus a route for select persons to approach the unapproachable King. But Christians don't have an unapproachable king; quite the opposite.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Thoughtful Monk, 03-15-2024, 06:19 PM
                                35 responses
                                166 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by KingsGambit, 03-15-2024, 02:12 PM
                                4 responses
                                49 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Thoughtful Monk  
                                Started by Chaotic Void, 03-08-2024, 07:36 AM
                                10 responses
                                119 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post mikewhitney  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 02-29-2024, 07:55 AM
                                14 responses
                                71 views
                                3 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 02-28-2024, 11:56 AM
                                13 responses
                                59 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Working...
                                X