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The Baldie Vs Mariology

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  • The Baldie Vs Mariology

    In early December of 2013 I spent three days at a monastery in Leicestershire (heading back there this Friday for a further four days) where I encountered something a little more than friendly monks. I encountered Compline, a service wherein the Salve Regina was chanted in a pitch black Church whilst a statue of Mary was in the spot light. The image has burned itself into my memory and no matter what I might come to write about, be it the LGBT movement, prayer, Christ, Churches I have visited, I cannot get Mary out of my head.

    I'm a rather rational man. I don't typically base my opinions etc off of my personal experience. But not since I "converted" (I use the term loosely) have I been so obsessed with a person. Christ is still as real to me now as He ever was, but I'd always passed His Mother up as just another Saint that I can learn from and give respect to. Being raised Church of England I have no problem with veneration, though prayer to the Saints is another ongoing battle for me.

    But this woman will not exit my imagination. I've researched somewhat into her now I have easy access to Kindle on my iPad. I've downloaded "Catholicism, Enhanced Edition" by Fr. Robert Barron, "Mother of God, A History of the Virgin Mary" by Miri Rubin and am going to move on to studying the patristic sources as well as the protogospel of Saint James. I don't think I have ever put this much effort into looking into a person other than my looking into Christ.

    Any books, arguments, videos, documentaries, lectures or prayers would be much appreciated. Otherwise I'll end up sitting in the freezing cold staring at a statue of her again for an eternity.

    As a final note, I'm trying to come at this as openly as possible. Not presupposing protestant, anglo-catholic, roman catholic or orthodox points of view. Merely seeking to get to the truth of the matter. Who is Mary?
    Last edited by Baldie the Limey; 02-23-2014, 03:13 PM.

  • #2
    I am not sure what sorts of arguments you are looking for. You have had a particular experience three months ago which has affected you. You are on a path which has had you spending quite a bit of time at a monastery. You are reading various lore about Mary. What is the question which you seek to answer? Your process seems likely to determine your outcome. What assumptions do you hold about the relative value of modern scholarship, surviving writings from the early church, your own gut feelings, the teachings of your local church and minister, and the words of the Bible? Everything the Bible says explicitly about Mary is narrative rather than analytical, and would go beyond one page of text only because two gospels contain overlapping narratives of the birth of Christ. What do you make of that?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      I am not sure what sorts of arguments you are looking for. You have had a particular experience three months ago which has affected you. You are on a path which has had you spending quite a bit of time at a monastery. You are reading various lore about Mary. What is the question which you seek to answer? Your process seems likely to determine your outcome. What assumptions do you hold about the relative value of modern scholarship, surviving writings from the early church, your own gut feelings, the teachings of your local church and minister, and the words of the Bible? Everything the Bible says explicitly about Mary is narrative rather than analytical, and would go beyond one page of text only because two gospels contain overlapping narratives of the birth of Christ. What do you make of that?
      Ah, I added the driving question. My apologies for overlooking it.

      I am an Anglican. Scripture is interpreted within the context of the Church. If Mary has had a significant place in Church history, then I shall look at Scripture in light of that. I shall only place as much stock in said history as evidence is available. For example, I'm very "iffy" concerning the Gospel of Saint James (quite late after the events) and I know that some early Church fathers believed Mary to have died and been buried. Sure, I can agree she as a special place as the Mother of God, but to go as far as, for example, Rome and announce that she is co-medaitrix etc throws a spanner into the works for me. I simply want to know who she really is, what she really does (if anything) and if I should be giving her some form of devotion.

      Comment


      • #4
        Have you looked at any of John Henry Newman's works on Mary?
        Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
          Have you looked at any of John Henry Newman's works on Mary?
          I have not, though will now look into them.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Baldie the Limey View Post
            if I should be giving her some form of devotion.
            Do not pray to/worship her.

            Prayer/worship is due unto God alone.

            Comment


            • #7
              Mary Through the Centuries by Jaroslav Pelikan
              Mary: Images of the Mother of Jesus in Jewish and Christian Perspective by Jaroslav Pelikan
              A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary by Charles Dickson
              The Real Mary: Why Evangelical Christians can Embrace the Mother of Jesus by Scot McKnight

              In Orthodox tradition, Mary died and was buried, but her grave was empty 3 days later. The Orthodox also do not hold the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, and tend to disdain statues (too much like paganism).
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                God is very jealous and will share his glory with no one. I would approach the subject of veneration with caution. A person other than God who occupies the mind in such a way as you express here should be given an honest and thorough examination. I see you're doing that now. I hope you are able to find the right answers.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Two holy scriptures come to mind:
                  "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." -- Luke 11:37, 38.

                  "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . . " -- 1 Timothy 2:5.
                  . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yay, proof texts with no commentary!

                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    Two holy scriptures come to mind:
                    "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." -- Luke 11:37, 38.
                    As does other scripture:
                    Source: Luke 1

                    28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

                    29 But when she saw him,[d] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

                    34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

                    35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”

                    38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.


                    39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Either there's disagreement between 1) Jesus and 2) Gabriel and the Holy Spirit, or you're interpreting the verse wrong. Not only is she called "blessed" twice (once in connection with the fruit of her womb), but she also "heard the word of God and kept it."
                    "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; . . . " -- 1 Timothy 2:5.
                    Source: James 5:16b

                    The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

                    © Copyright Original Source


                    The saints (including Mary) are righteous, which is why we seek their prayer (which indeed avails much). Of course, in Orthodoxy, it is Mary's maternal relationship with Jesus' human nature which adds impetus to the veneration of Mary and requests for her prayers on our behalf, which your proof-text does not address.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Yay, proof texts with no commentary!


                      As does other scripture:
                      Source: Luke 1

                      28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

                      29 But when she saw him,[d] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

                      34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

                      35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible.”

                      38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.


                      39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah, 40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth. 41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Either there's disagreement between 1) Jesus and 2) Gabriel and the Holy Spirit, or you're interpreting the verse wrong. Not only is she called "blessed" twice (once in connection with the fruit of her womb), but she also "heard the word of God and kept it."
                      Mary was blessed because she keep the word of God. ". . . Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." And without question our yet to be born Savior was blessed too. So indeed she was also blessed being the one to give birth to our Lord [the man] who would be our Savior. So the one blessing Mary had, "heard the word of God and kept it," is a blessing that all true believers can partake.
                      Source: James 5:16b

                      The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      The saints (including Mary) are righteous, which is why we seek their prayer (which indeed avails much). Of course, in Orthodoxy, it is Mary's maternal relationship with Jesus' human nature which adds impetus to the veneration of Mary and requests for her prayers on our behalf, which your proof-text does not address.
                      Calling on the dead is witchcraft. Remember king Saul. For which God really sent Samuel the prophet.

                      It is not at issue that we can pray for each other. But as to our access to God, it is through Christ alone (John 14:6).
                      Last edited by 37818; 02-25-2014, 01:04 AM.
                      . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                        Prayer/worship is due unto God alone.
                        Have you ever asked another person to pray for you? That's what you do in the Salve Regina. You ask Mary the mother of Jesus, to pray to her Son for you.

                        Read the Salve Regina, what do you think?

                        Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
                        hail our life, our sweetness and our hope.
                        To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
                        to thee do we send up our sighs,
                        mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
                        Turn then, most gracious advocate,
                        thine eyes of mercy toward us;
                        and after this our exile,
                        show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
                        O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
                        ℣ Pray for us O holy Mother of God,
                        ℟ that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
                        Let us pray:
                        Almighty, everlasting God, who by the co-operation of the Holy Spirit didst prepare the body and soul of the glorious Virgin-Mother Mary to become a dwelling-place meet for thy Son: grant that as we rejoice in her commemoration; so by her fervent intercession we may be delivered from present evils and from everlasting death. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          Have you ever asked another person to pray for you? That's what you do in the Salve Regina. You ask Mary the mother of Jesus, to pray to her Son for you.

                          Read the Salve Regina, what do you think?

                          Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
                          hail our life, our sweetness and our hope.
                          To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
                          to thee do we send up our sighs,
                          mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
                          Turn then, most gracious advocate,
                          thine eyes of mercy toward us;
                          and after this our exile,
                          show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
                          O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
                          ℣ Pray for us O holy Mother of God,
                          ℟ that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
                          Let us pray:
                          Almighty, everlasting God, who by the co-operation of the Holy Spirit didst prepare the body and soul of the glorious Virgin-Mother Mary to become a dwelling-place meet for thy Son: grant that as we rejoice in her commemoration; so by her fervent intercession we may be delivered from present evils and from everlasting death. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
                          Not a dead one..

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Calling on the dead is witchcraft. Remember king Saul. For which God really sent Samuel the prophet.
                            Source: Matthew 22:31-32

                            31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            I'd say that, in some sense, the righteous dead are alive in Christ. Further, prayer to the saints has almost nothing in common with king Saul's attempted conversation with Samuel (personally, I'm not convinced that was actually Samuel).
                            It is not at issue that we can pray for each other. But as to our access to God, it is through Christ alone (John 14:6).
                            I'm glad we agree on that.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Everything the Bible says explicitly about Mary is narrative rather than analytical, and would go beyond one page of text only because two gospels contain overlapping narratives of the birth of Christ. What do you make of that?
                              I think you and I agree on the importance of epistemic questions, however why is the shortness relevant? All the really salient quotes that teaches say the depravity of humanity, as Calvinists consider it, can be written on the back of your forearm. We don't need to know all that much about Mary, because her life is centered around her Son, and the gospels are about Him. However if you want a full and consistent Christian worldview, I think you and I agree that you can't skip anything.

                              Mary is important, in fact of all the believers she played the most pivotal role, by allowing God's plan of salvation to come into fruition.

                              We can construct counterfactuals about what would have happened if John or James had also gone the way of Judas, but what sort of history of salvation would you construct without Mary? Jesus couldn't just materialise without being born, that would diminish his humanity.

                              She got to carry Christ in her womb, deliver Him, nurse and suckle Him, teach him how to walk as well as wisdom ("And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." - Luke 2:52). Its fitting that God would make a woman who would be able to fulfill this role. That could only have been a gift of grace to her. And then finally at the cross, Christ told John that she was to be his mother from now on. Catholics and Orthodox have taken that as a deeper declaration, that she's the spiritual mother of all believers. Otherwise he might as well have told John to take care of her.

                              And I think I disagree with you that all we have about her is from the gospels. Pretty much all of the New Testament is modelled on the Old; spiritual purity and human uncleanliness before God is indicated in the purity laws and the holiness of the temple (the individual bodies would in time become the temple); Judgement Day is foreshadowed in the flood of Noah and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah; baptism has its foreshadowing in the delivery of the slaves of Egypt when they walked through the ocean; Christ's death of the cross and the need of his blood for salvation in the rituals of slaughter of lambs; the Ark of the covenant which carried the sacred law inside of it... that seems a foreshadowing of Mary, who carried The Word within her, and also of her importance.

                              This isn't a full formal analysis, but in light of this summary, its hard for me to see how a protestant Christian is justified in spending 99% of his time when talking about holy Christians in the bible, talking about Paul the Apostle, and the other 1% of time talking about how unimportant Mary is.

                              Comment

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