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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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Isaiah 30:20

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  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    And in context, having God "whisper" (and what is whispered isn't recorded) then Elijah goes outside the cave and the same conversation happens...silence makes more sense I think...after the theophany's of God, there is a silence and Elijah being curious steps out to "see where God went"

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  • Littlejoe
    replied
    And in context, having God "whisper" (and what is whispered isn't recorded) then Elijah goes outside the cave and the same conversation happens...silence makes more sense I think...after the theophany's of God, there is a silence and Elijah being curious steps out to "see where God went"

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    The clause in question at the end of 1 Kings 19:12 is קוֹל דְּמָמָה דַקָּה (ql dᵉmāmāh ḏaqqā) : construct קוֹל (ql) a voice of + דְּמָמָה (ḏᵉmāmāh) : "calm, cessation of strong movement of air" (HALOT) ― (according to BDB the word also means "silence" and is related to another noun and also a verb that bear the sense of "silent", "still") + adjective דַּק (ḏaq) : small, soft (HALOT).
    Just one other thing that I fail to note: that is that קוֹל (ql) can mean sound rather than voice; in fact the former is more primary than the latter.

    That fills out the rationale for the NRSV rendering a sound of sheer silence.

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  • Littlejoe
    replied
    Thank you very much John!

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  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Along that same vein...The concept of hearing God in "a still small voice" comes from the passage in 1 Kings 19:12 (KJV). The NIV renders that phrase as "gentle whisper", ESV as "low whisper", NASB as "a gentle blowing, NSRV seems to be the lone outlier says "sound of sheer silence"

    1 Kings 19:12New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of sheer silence.


    Melachim Alef 19:12Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)12 And after the ra’ash an eish; but Hashem was not in the eish; and after the eish a kol demamah dakkah (a quiet, gentle voice).
    The clause in question at the end of 1 Kings 19:12 is קוֹל דְּמָמָה דַקָּה (ql dᵉmāmāh ḏaqqā) : construct קוֹל (ql) a voice of + דְּמָמָה (ḏᵉmāmāh) : "calm, cessation of strong movement of air" (HALOT) ― (according to BDB the word also means "silence" and is related to another noun and also a verb that bear the sense of "silent", "still") + adjective דַּק (ḏaq) : small, soft (HALOT).

    Leave a comment:


  • Littlejoe
    replied
    Along that same vein...The concept of hearing God in "a still small voice" comes from the passage in 1 Kings 19:12 (KJV). The NIV renders that phrase as "gentle whisper", ESV as "low whisper", NASB as "a gentle blowing, NSRV seems to be the lone outlier says "sound of sheer silence"

    1 Kings 19:12New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)12 and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of sheer silence.


    Melachim Alef 19:12Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)12 And after the ra’ash an eish; but Hashem was not in the eish; and after the eish a kol demamah dakkah (a quiet, gentle voice).

    Please shed any light you can on this passage.

    Thanks!

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  • Littlejoe
    replied
    It appears that even the experts aren't sure on this one...

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  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Hey experts, I am working on a series for Adult Sunday School. Having a little trouble ferreting out whether - morim -mwreh, mo-reh'; in Isaiah 30:20 is singular or plural. Teacher, teacher, or teachers. It can also mean an archer; also teaching; also the early rain:—(early) rain.

    The Orthodox Jewish Bible renders:
    Source: Is. 30:20 OJB

    20 And though Adonoi give you the lechem tzar (bread of trouble), and the mayim lachatz (waters of affliction), yet shall not thy morim (teachers) hide themselves any more, but thine eynayim shall see thy morim;

    © Copyright Original Source



    However, NASB, has it singular, and seems to capitalize it, even throws in an italicized He to point the teacher to being God, not prophets or teachers. ESV also uses capital T and singular. What say you?

    Thanks!

    Very interesting:

    TNIV: Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them.

    NRSV: Though the Lord may give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, yet your Teacher will not hide himself any more, but your eyes shall see your Teacher.

    The word in question, which occurs twice in Isa 30:20, is מוֹרֶה (mreh), which in both occurrences in 30:20 is grammatically ambiguous.

    F. Delitzsch says with regard to the second of the two occurrences that are both inflected מוֹרֶיךָ (mrḵā) ("your teacher" or "your teachers") in 30:20:
    מוֹרֶיךָ is a plural, according to context (on the singular of the previous predicate, see Ges 147).

    From The Book of Isaiah Chapters 1-39 (NICOT: Eerdmans, 1986―via Accordance), by John N. Oswalt:
    20 .... Yes, God will give them over to siege conditions, but as a result of that, he will no longer hide himself from them. This last statement assumes that God is the teacher intended, but there is no proof of that assumption. The word mreyḵā, “your teacher,” may be either singular or plural and commentators are divided as to which is intended (although the verb is clearly singular). Generally those who believe God cannot be intended adopt the plural and say the reference is to prophets, who had gone underground to avoid persecution. But the case for taking the teacher to be God is equally strong. It is clear from the previous chapters that he had tried to teach them (28:9–13; 29:11, 12; 30:15), but that their own obstinacy had blinded and deafened them to the truth. Now because of judgment, their eyes and ears will be opened to what it is he has been trying to say (26:9).
    Last edited by John Reece; 06-23-2015, 07:25 AM.

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  • Littlejoe
    started a topic Isaiah 30:20

    Isaiah 30:20

    Hey experts, I am working on a series for Adult Sunday School. Having a little trouble ferreting out whether - morim -mwreh, mo-reh'; in Isaiah 30:20 is singular or plural. Teacher, teacher, or teachers. It can also mean an archer; also teaching; also the early rain:(early) rain.

    The Orthodox Jewish Bible renders:
    Source: Is. 30:20 OJB

    20 And though Adonoi give you the lechem tzar (bread of trouble), and the mayim lachatz (waters of affliction), yet shall not thy morim (teachers) hide themselves any more, but thine eynayim shall see thy morim;

    © Copyright Original Source



    However, NASB, has it singular, and seems to capitalize it, even throws in an italicized He to point the teacher to being God, not prophets or teachers. ESV also uses capital T and singular. What say you?

    Thanks!

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