Announcement

Collapse

Biblical Languages 301 Guidelines

This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Luke 9:23

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Luke 9:23

    I was wondering what the manuscript evidence for καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 .

  • #2
    Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
    I was wondering what the manuscript evidence for καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 .
    According to the critical apparatus in Nestle-Aland 28th edition, the manuscript evidence for καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 is P75 א[+ symbol for original hand *.2b which Hebrew font will not allow me to display adjacent to upper right corner of א where it belongs] A B K L W Θ Ξ Ψ f1.13 33. 700. 892. 2542 aur f vg syc.p.h** samss bo.

    The manuscript evidence for omitting καθ᾿ ἡμέραν is comparatively so weak that it is not even noted as a variant reading in textual commentaries such as those by Metzger and Comfort.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by John Reece View Post


      According to the critical apparatus in Nestle-Aland 28th edition, the manuscript evidence for καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 is P75 א[+ symbol for original hand *.2b which Hebrew font will not allow me to display adjacent to upper right corner of א where it belongs] A B K L W Θ Ξ Ψ f1.13 33. 700. 892. 2542 aur f vg syc.p.h** samss bo.

      The manuscript evidence for omitting καθ᾿ ἡμέραν is comparatively so weak that it is not even noted as a variant reading in textual commentaries such as those by Metzger and Comfort.
      According to Von Soden, Hodges-Farstad, Robison-Pierpont, and the Complutensian Polyglot, the words didn't exist. The other gospels don't add them either. The Family of Nuns and Priests and their children need to bleed like that in monetary terms.
      Last edited by Omniskeptical; 04-11-2015, 04:01 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
        According to Von Soden, Hodges-Farstad, Robison-Pierpont, and the Complutensian Polyglot, the words didn't exist.
        I will wager a $100 donation to TWeb that you cannot cite any documentation from any of the sources you have named that say "the words didn't exist".

        If "the words didn't exist", they would not occur in Greek editions as diverse of the following:

        Nestle-Aland 28th: Luke 9:23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.

        Textus Receptus: Luke 9:23 ἔλεγε δὲ πρὸς πάντας, Εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἐλθεῖν, ἀπαρνησάσθω ἑαυτόν, καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.

        Tischendorf: Luke 9:23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.

        Westcott & Hort: Luke 9:23 Ἔλεγεν δὲ πρὸς πάντας Εἴ τις θέλει ὀπίσω μου ἔρχεσθαι, ἀρνησάσθω ἑαυτὸν καὶ ἀράτω τὸν σταυρὸν αὐτοῦ καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, καὶ ἀκολουθείτω μοι.
        Last edited by John Reece; 04-11-2015, 05:03 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wilbur N Pickering, The Greek New Testament According to Family 35, page 134, note 18:
          18αυτου f35C(D) [87%] CP,HF,RP || 1 καθ' ημεραν P75A,B,W [13%] TR,OC,NU
          f35 means Von Soden's collation. CP means Complutensian Polyglot. HF means Hodges and Farstad. RP means Robinson-Pierpont. It is a Catholic, Masochistic interpolation. It is easier to prove this one came from the vulgate.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Omniskeptical;184309 emphasis added
            According to Von Soden, Hodges-Farstad, Robison-Pierpont, and the Complutensian Polyglot, the words didn't exist.

            Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
            Wilbur N Pickering, The Greek New Testament According to Family 35, page 134, note 18:
            18αυτου f35C(D) [87%] CP,HF,RP || 1 καθ' ημεραν P75A,B,W [13%] TR,OC,NU

            f35 means Von Soden's collation. CP means Complutensian Polyglot. HF means Hodges and Farstad. RP means Robinson-Pierpont. It is a Catholic, Masochistic interpolation. It is easier to prove this one came from the vulgate.
            Where does it say "the words didn't exist"?

            As for your comment that "It is easier to prove this one came from the vulgate", I would note that the Latin Vulgate is just one of nearly two dozen witnesses to the existence of the words καθ᾿ ἡμέραν, the primary and most important witnesses being Greek manuscripts.

            Consider again the witnesses listed in the critical apparatus in Nestle-Aland 28th edition, wherein the manuscript evidence for reading καθ᾿ ἡμέραν in Luke 9:23 is as follows:
            P75 א[+ symbol for original hand *.2b which Hebrew font will not allow me to display adjacent to upper right corner of א where it belongs] A B K L W Θ Ξ Ψ f1.13 33. 700. 892. 2542 aur f vg [(= Vulgata) represents agreement of the most important editions of the Vulgate in support of the same Greek reading.] syc.p.h** samss bo.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by John Reece View Post
              Where does it say "the words didn't exist"?
              18 αυτου f35C(D) [87%] CP,HF,RP

              Why isn't in the majority of manuscripts?

              According to Pickering, Von Soden says 87% of his manuscripts or facsimiles had it.
              Last edited by Omniskeptical; 04-12-2015, 09:44 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                18 αυτου f35C(D) [87%] CP,HF,RP

                Why isn't in the majority of manuscripts?

                According to Pickering, Von Soden says 87% of his manuscripts or facsimiles had it.
                You have changed the subject rather than responding to my question.

                You ignore my question; I ignore your question.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                  You have changed the subject rather than responding to my question.

                  You ignore my question; I ignore your question.
                  Excuse me, 87% didn't have them according to the apparatus. It was a typo on my part. Yes, it says this somewhere in Von Soden. Otherwise, the Majority Text version wouldn't omit it.

                  No I didn't change the subject. You pretended to refute my answer, then I demonstrated that you were wrong by showing an accurate apparatus. I even told you it was Von Soden, but you didn't get any more specific in your response. You were specific on how specific I needed to be.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Von Soden's greek new testament pdf volume 2, page 316

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                      Von Soden's greek new testament pdf volume 2, page 316
                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]5557[/ATTACH]
                      Invalid.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                        Invalid.
                        Only if you don't understand the picture. Seriously, does it work?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                          Only if you don't understand the picture. Seriously, does it work?
                          Seriously, no: When I wrote "Invalid" I was copying the message I received when I clicked on the link:

                          "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                            Seriously, no: When I wrote "Invalid" I was copying the message I received when I clicked on the link:

                            "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator."
                            How does one upload an image from their computer to Tweb? I did give the page number, and an inexact book title. Should I give you the download link?
                            Last edited by Omniskeptical; 04-12-2015, 01:51 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Omniskeptical View Post
                              How does one upload an image from their computer to Tweb? I did give the page number, and an inexact book title. Should I give you the download link?
                              I have no idea how such things work or what one does with them.

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by DesertBerean, 11-02-2020, 02:57 PM
                              4 responses
                              39 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post DesertBerean  
                              Working...
                              X