Announcement

Collapse

Biblical Languages 301 Guidelines

This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

John 1, and Philippians 2:5-7.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post


    NA27: Philippians 2:11: καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ πατρός.

    NRSV: Philippians 2:11: and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord [יהוה], to the glory of God the Father.

    The Tetragrammaton is not a name like any other name.


    Genesis 2:20 And man named all the cattle and the fowl of the heavens and all the beasts of the field.

    But he did not not name God, nor did he name himself Adam.

    The Tetragrammaton consisting of the initial letters of the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1, exactly where creation is completed and there is rest.

    The name Adam can be read is "ani domeh" = I am like (= I am [made] in the form of God).

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    "Jesus = YHVH" is silly.
    NA27: Philippians 2:11: καὶ πᾶσα γλῶσσα ἐξομολογήσηται ὅτι κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς εἰς δόξαν θεοῦ πατρός.

    NRSV: Philippians 2:11: and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord [יהוה], to the glory of God the Father.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    Silly.
    " The truth of Scripture is ascertained by sound exegesis, not by mere assertion. "

    My "Neuer sprachlicher Schlüssel zum Griechischen Neuen Testament" by Haubeck and Von Siebenthal says: " "onoma"- hier wohl Würde, Titel (nämlich "Herr")" -

    "Jesus = YHVH" is silly.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    So God the Father is just God, while God the Son is his name?
    Silly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post


    The "God" whose name is κύριος / יהוה is Jesus Christ ― κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς.

    There is indeed a distinction between God the Father and God the Son; however, Scripture identifies both as God.
    So God the Father is just God, while God the Son is his name?

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    [size=4][font=times new roman]

    The "God" whose name is κύριος / יהוה is Jesus Christ ― κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς.
    So in fact Jews should pray: "Hear Israel Jesus Christ is our God, Jesus Christ is one"?

    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    There is indeed a distinction between God the Father and God the Son; however, Scripture identifies both as God.
    Where it does so?

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    How you can "know" God? Through Jesus.

    Which would imply that there is a distinction between God and his name.

    Like I am called "Geert", but my parents could as well have called met "Hans", which wouldn't have effected my inner being.
    The "God" whose name is κύριος / יהוה is Jesus Christ ― κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς.

    There is indeed a distinction between God the Father and God the Son; however, Scripture identifies both as God.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post


    Sounds like you have come around to entertaining the possibility that in Philippians 2:9-11 Jesus is God .
    How you can "know" God? Through Jesus.

    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    In A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament (Rome: Biblical Institute Press, 1981), by Max Zerwick and Mary Grosvenor, the entry for τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα (the name that is above every name) at Philippians 2:9 is this:
    τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα : i.e. his own name: the LORD of OT (Jahweh), κύριος.
    Which would imply that there is a distinction between God and his name.

    Like I am called "Geert", but my parents could as well have called met "Hans", which wouldn't have effected my inner being.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    Might Philippians 2:9-11 want to say "In Jesus God has become a face"?

    In fact we didn't know whom to pray to, or what to say.
    We feared God to be kind of a beast, a ruthless ruler / tiran.
    But now, at the end of time, he turned out to be humankind, kind of a human, even favoring you ..
    Sounds like you have come around to entertaining the possibility that in Philippians 2:9-11 Jesus is God .

    In A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament (Rome: Biblical Institute Press, 1981), by Max Zerwick and Mary Grosvenor, the entry for τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα (the name that is above every name) at Philippians 2:9 is this:
    τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα : i.e. his own name: the LORD of OT (Jahweh), κύριος.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    But now my thought, my vision:
    Might Philippians 2:9-11 want to say "In Jesus God has become a face"?

    In fact we didn't know whom to pray to, or what to say.
    We feared God to be kind of a beast, a ruthless ruler / tiran.
    But now, at the end of time, he turned out to be humankind, kind of a human, even favoring you ..
    Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 11-19-2014, 06:26 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    But now my thought, my vision:

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post


    The truth of Scripture is ascertained by sound exegesis, not by mere assertion.

    Here (at Philippians 2:11) the text says κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός.
    aren't there other texts as well that say such? I just pick one: Ephesians 6:23, Εἰρήνη τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς καὶ ἀγάπη μετὰ πίστεως ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    The text of Philippians 2:11, per the margin of NA27, alludes to the LXX text of Isaiah 45:23(24 in English versions); "the use of language from Isaiah 45:23 demonstrates that Jewish monotheism is the background for this hymn" (see here).
    LXX Isaiah 45:23, κατ' ἐμαυτοῦ ὀμνύω ἦ μὴν ἐξελεύσεται ἐκ τοῦ στόματός μου δικαιοσύνη οἱ λόγοι μου οὐκ ἀποστραφήσονται ὅτι ἐμοὶ κάμψει πᾶν γόνυ καὶ ἐξομολογήσεται πᾶσα γλῶςα τῷ θεῷ


    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    In the LXX, κύριος is used at least 6,156 times as the Greek rendering of the divine proper name YHWH (‏יהוה) = the proper name of the God of Israel.
    Name that only was made known at mount Sinai on the day of Pentecost: "I am Hashem your (singular) God, etc."

    It being not "a noun that denotes a particular thing" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proper+name).

    By saying " the divine proper name YHWH" you're making an idol out of it. (like also the Jehovah-witnesses do).
    (The name actually being hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim" --( Rashi: "Scripture added a “hey” on the sixth [day](...)They [the works of creation] were all suspended until the “sixth day,” referring to the sixth day of Sivan")



    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    Philippians 2:9-11 declares that the proper name (not merely a noun paired with the noun δοῦλος) of the God of Israel has been given to Jesus (ἐχαρίσατο αὐτῷ τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα), so that every tongue should confess that Jesus is κύριος ― i.e., YHWH (‏יהוה) ― the proper name of God in the original Bible of the Christian Church, i.e., the LXX).
    χαρίζομαι is not just "to give" but "to favor", after Hebrew "chanan" - root of the name John ("y'hochanan")

    And "the name that is above every name" seems to be the name of Jesus (and not of God) since the next verse says: " so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow".

    So: Jesus found favor by emptying himself of all worldly aspiration (to be the best, the first, the smartest, the most charitable, to be the one who is right after all, etc.)

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    In Philippians 2:6-11 κύριος forms a pair with δοῦλος:

    He acquired lordship, ratified by God, by taking the form of a servant.

    κύριος is never used to say that Jesus is God, not here, and also not in other NT-places.
    The truth of Scripture is ascertained by sound exegesis, not by mere assertion.

    Here (at Philippians 2:11) the text says κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός.

    The text of Philippians 2:11, per the margin of NA27, alludes to the LXX text of Isaiah 45:23(24 in English versions); "the use of language from Isaiah 45:23 demonstrates that Jewish monotheism is the background for this hymn" (see here).

    In the LXX, κύριος is used at least 6,156 times as the Greek rendering of the divine proper name YHWH (‏יהוה) = the proper name of the God of Israel.

    Philippians 2:9-11 declares that the proper name (not merely a noun paired with the noun δοῦλος) of the God of Israel has been given to Jesus (ἐχαρίσατο αὐτῷ τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ὑπὲρ πᾶν ὄνομα), so that every tongue should confess that Jesus is κύριος ― i.e., YHWH (‏יהוה) ― the proper name of God in the original Bible of the Christian Church, i.e., the LXX).
    Last edited by John Reece; 11-18-2014, 06:30 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    Do not miss this, which is now hidden on a prior page.
    In Philippians 2:6-11 κύριος forms a pair with δοῦλος:

    He acquired lordship, ratified by God, by taking the form of a servant.

    κύριος is never used to say that Jesus is God, not here, and also not in other NT-places.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός

    Do not miss this, which is now hidden on a prior page.

    Leave a comment:

widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Working...
X