John 1, and Philippians 2:5-7.

[Geert van den Bos]

John and I each provided Lexical glosses for γίνομαι which show the word being used in the sense of birth. Apparently, you haven't even tried to look at any of the sources listed. John Reece even highlighted Romans 1:3, which very clearly uses γίνομαι in the sense of birth: περὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ τοῦ γενομένου ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυὶδ κατὰ σάρκα.

Sorry, I looked John Reece's reference to Romans 1:3 over the head. But it surely doesn't have the meaning of "born" - like most translations also don't have:
http://biblehub.com/romans/1-3.htm ESV concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh

From the BDAG, we also have these Biblical uses:
1 Esdras 4:16, καὶ ἐξ αὐτῶν ἐγένοντο καὶ αὗται ἐξέθρεψαν αὐτοὺς τοὺς φυτεύοντας τοὺς ἀμπελῶνας ἐξ ὧν ὁ οἶνος γίνεται
Tobit 8:6, σὺ ἐποίησας Αδαμ καὶ ἔδωκας αὐτῷ βοηθὸν Ευαν στήριγμα τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ ἐκ τούτων ἐγενήθη τὸ ἀνθρώπων σπέρμα σὺ εἶπας Οὐ καλὸν εἶναι τὸν ἄνθρωπον μόνον ποιήσωμεν αὐτῷ βοηθὸν ὅμοιον αὐτῷ
1 Corinthians 15:37, καὶ ὃ σπείρεις, οὐ τὸ σῶμα τὸ γενησόμενον σπείρεις ἀλλὰ γυμνὸν κόκκον εἰ τύχοι σίτου ἤ τινος τῶν λοιπῶν
Matthew 21:19, καὶ ἰδὼν συκῆν μίαν ἐπὶ τῆς ὁδοῦ ἦλθεν ἐπʼ αὐτὴν καὶ οὐδὲν εὗρεν ἐν αὐτῇ εἰ μὴ φύλλα μόνον, καὶ λέγει αὐτῇ · μηκέτι ἐκ σοῦ καρπὸς γένηται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. καὶ ἐξηράνθη παραχρῆμα ἡ συκῆ

How then would you translate 1 Corinthians 15:37? Not one here has "born" http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-37.htm
And Matthew 21:9?

...to say nothing of the very many extra-Biblical sources for translating γίνομαι as "born" which I provided and you have simply ignored.

1) I don't have those texts 2) we are discussing the bible, and especially Philippians 2:7.

What's your point? Using two words with similar meanings doesn't invalidate the meaning of one or the other. You see, there are these things called "synonyms" in grammar...

It's just strong indication that Galatians 4:4 doesn't want to say "born".

How do you figure? I'm fairly certain that Paul would have thought that Jesus, being Jewish, had been born under the law and therefore obligated to keep the whole law.

You only come "under the law" through circumcision. Besides that it was exactly the clue of Paul's letter tot the Galatians.

Yes, because the Philippians 2 hymn is poetry. And, as is fairly common in poetry from that era (and, indeed, poetry from before that era and after, even into modern times) the poem uses a word with different meanings to mean different things at different points in the poem. Using the same word in different ways links two disparate ideas, and makes memorization of an oral tradition easier.

"genomenos" is repeated to build it up: as servant he was obedient unto death.

Once again, saying that Jesus was born does not imply that Jesus was God who had taken the form of a servant. Being "in the form of God" is not necessarily the same thing as being God.

How could he be in the form of God before born?

Or do you mean that as fetus he was in the form of God?

[Boxing Pythagoras]

There are 671 occurrences of the verb γίνομαι in NT scripture:

http://biblehub.com/greek/1096.htm

So at least in 668 occurrences it doesn't denote "birth" (except for if you take "being born" in a wider sense: everything that happens has been given birth)

Three occurrences, 2 x in Galatians 4:4 and 1 x in Philippians2:7, remaining under dispute.

John and I each provided Lexical glosses for γίνομαι which show the word being used in the sense of birth. Apparently, you haven't even tried to look at any of the sources listed. John Reece even highlighted Romans 1:3, which very clearly uses γίνομαι in the sense of birth: περὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ τοῦ γενομένου ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυὶδ κατὰ σάρκα.

From the BDAG, we also have these Biblical uses:
1 Esdras 4:16, καὶ ἐξ αὐτῶν ἐγένοντο καὶ αὗται ἐξέθρεψαν αὐτοὺς τοὺς φυτεύοντας τοὺς ἀμπελῶνας ἐξ ὧν ὁ οἶνος γίνεται
Tobit 8:6, σὺ ἐποίησας Αδαμ καὶ ἔδωκας αὐτῷ βοηθὸν Ευαν στήριγμα τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ ἐκ τούτων ἐγενήθη τὸ ἀνθρώπων σπέρμα σὺ εἶπας Οὐ καλὸν εἶναι τὸν ἄνθρωπον μόνον ποιήσωμεν αὐτῷ βοηθὸν ὅμοιον αὐτῷ
1 Corinthians 15:37, καὶ ὃ σπείρεις, οὐ τὸ σῶμα τὸ γενησόμενον σπείρεις ἀλλὰ γυμνὸν κόκκον εἰ τύχοι σίτου ἤ τινος τῶν λοιπῶν
Matthew 21:19, καὶ ἰδὼν συκῆν μίαν ἐπὶ τῆς ὁδοῦ ἦλθεν ἐπʼ αὐτὴν καὶ οὐδὲν εὗρεν ἐν αὐτῇ εἰ μὴ φύλλα μόνον, καὶ λέγει αὐτῇ · μηκέτι ἐκ σοῦ καρπὸς γένηται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. καὶ ἐξηράνθη παραχρῆμα ἡ συκῆ

...to say nothing of the very many extra-Biblical sources for translating γίνομαι as "born" which I provided and you have simply ignored.

As for Galatians 4:4 we have already seen that Paul in the same chapter uses another verb for being born, γεννάω.

What's your point? Using two words with similar meanings doesn't invalidate the meaning of one or the other. You see, there are these things called "synonyms" in grammar...

"Born of a woman" might make sense, but "born under the law"? -- the letter to the Galatians being about that through circumcision one comes under the law; Galatians 5:3, I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
-- so translation "born under the law" is against the spirit of the letter.

How do you figure? I'm fairly certain that Paul would have thought that Jesus, being Jewish, had been born under the law and therefore obligated to keep the whole law.

And for Phillippians 2:7 we saw that the same γενόμενος is repeated in v.8 where it certainly doesn't carry the meaning of "being born".

Yes, because the Philippians 2 hymn is poetry. And, as is fairly common in poetry from that era (and, indeed, poetry from before that era and after, even into modern times) the poem uses a word with different meanings to mean different things at different points in the poem. Using the same word in different ways links two disparate ideas, and makes memorization of an oral tradition easier.

And it was all about the γενόμενος in Philiipians 2:7, that if you translate "born" it implies that the earthly Jesus was God who had taken the form of a servant. Which seems to be rather unlikely and not in concordance with Paul's view (Paul never said that Jesus was God in human form)

Once again, saying that Jesus was born does not imply that Jesus was God who had taken the form of a servant. Being "in the form of God" is not necessarily the same thing as being God.

[Geert van den Bos]

The verbs γεννάω and γίνομαι have overlapping semantic fields; their usage is not mutually exclusive.

The verb γίνομαι has a wide range of nuances, one of which is definitely to be born; as demonstrated above, it is the primary meaning of the word in the history of its usage.

So, it is not true that in Galatians 4:4 γίνομαι must denote something other than born.

The meaning of words is determined by usage in context. In the context of Galatians 4:4, the sense is plainly that rendered in the NRSV: "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law..."

The paraphrase of γίνομαι in the Aramaic Bible in Plain English has γίνομαι rendered by the preposition "from"; such a loose paraphrase as that cannot be taken seriously as evidence that Paul could not have been using γίνομαι simply as a synonym for γεννάω in Galatians 4.

The brilliant linguist and author of A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, Max Zerwick has this for γενόμενον at Galatians 4:4: aorist participle of γίνομαι be born.

The English speaking world standard Greek-English Lexicon of The New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG) has this entry for γίνομαι in Galatians 4:4:

1. to come into being through process of birth or natural production, be born, be produced (SIG 1168, 6; Epict. 2, 17, 8; Wsd 7:3; Sir 44:9; Just., A I, 13, 3; Tat. 26, 2) J 8:58; w. ἔκ τινος foll. (Diod. S. 3, 64, 1; Appian, Basil. 5 §1; Parthenius 1, 4; Athen. 13, 37 p. 576c ἐξ ἑταίρας; PPetr III, 2, 20; PFlor 382, 38 ὁ ἐξ ἐμοῦ γενόμενος υἱός; 1 Esdr 4:16; Tob 8:6; Jos., Ant. 2, 216) Romans 1:3; Galatians 4:4 (cp. 1QS 11:21). Also of plants 1 Cor 15:37. Of fruits ἔκ τινος be produced by a tree Mt 21:19 (cp. X., Mem. 3, 6, 13 ὁ ἐκ τ. χώρας γιγνόμενος σῖτος). W. ἀπό τινος foll. Ox 1081 (SJCh), 11 γε̣[ινόμε]νον, 14 γέγ[ονος], 14f γε[ι]νομεν[ον], 19 γέγονος.

There are 671 occurrences of the verb γίνομαι in NT scripture:

http://biblehub.com/greek/1096.htm

So at least in 668 occurrences it doesn't denote "birth" (except for if you take "being born" in a wider sense: everything that happens has been given birth)

Three occurrences, 2 x in Galatians 4:4 and 1 x in Philippians2:7, remaining under dispute.

As for Galatians 4:4 we have already seen that Paul in the same chapter uses another verb for being born, γεννάω.

"Born of a woman" might make sense, but "born under the law"? -- the letter to the Galatians being about that through circumcision one comes under the law; Galatians 5:3, I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
-- so translation "born under the law" is against the spirit of the letter.

And for Phillippians 2:7 we saw that the same γενόμενος is repeated in v.8 where it certainly doesn't carry the meaning of "being born".

And it was all about the γενόμενος in Philiipians 2:7, that if you translate "born" it implies that the earthly Jesus was God who had taken the form of a servant. Which seems to be rather unlikely and not in concordance with Paul's view (Paul never said that Jesus was God in human form)

[John Reece]

But in the same Galatians 4, in v.23 and v.29, γεννάω is used.

v. 23 ἀλλ' ὁ μὲν ἐκ τῆς παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα γεγέννηται, ὁ δὲ ἐκ τῆς ἐλευθέρας δι' ἐπαγγελίας
ESV But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise

v. 29 ἀλλ' ὥσπερ τότε ὁ κατὰ σάρκα γεννηθεὶς ἐδίωκεν τὸν κατὰ πνεῦμα, οὕτως καὶ νῦν.
ESV But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now

So the γενόμενον in v.4 must denote something else, like ( Aramaic Bible in Plain English): But when the end of time arrived, God sent his Son and he was from a woman and was under The Written Law,

The verbs γεννάω and γίνομαι have overlapping semantic fields; their usage is not mutually exclusive.

The verb γίνομαι has a wide range of nuances, one of which is definitely to be born; as demonstrated above, it is the primary meaning of the word in the history of its usage.

So, it is not true that in Galatians 4:4 γίνομαι must denote something other than born.

The meaning of words is determined by usage in context. In the context of Galatians 4:4, the sense is plainly that rendered in the NRSV: "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law..."

The paraphrase of γίνομαι in the Aramaic Bible in Plain English has γίνομαι rendered by the preposition "from"; such a loose paraphrase as that cannot be taken seriously as evidence that Paul could not have been using γίνομαι simply as a synonym for γεννάω in Galatians 4.

The brilliant linguist and author of A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, Max Zerwick has this for γενόμενον at Galatians 4:4: aorist participle of γίνομαι be born.

The English speaking world standard Greek-English Lexicon of The New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG) has this entry for γίνομαι in Galatians 4:4:

1. to come into being through process of birth or natural production, be born, be produced (SIG 1168, 6; Epict. 2, 17, 8; Wsd 7:3; Sir 44:9; Just., A I, 13, 3; Tat. 26, 2) J 8:58; w. ἔκ τινος foll. (Diod. S. 3, 64, 1; Appian, Basil. 5 §1; Parthenius 1, 4; Athen. 13, 37 p. 576c ἐξ ἑταίρας; PPetr III, 2, 20; PFlor 382, 38 ὁ ἐξ ἐμοῦ γενόμενος υἱός; 1 Esdr 4:16; Tob 8:6; Jos., Ant. 2, 216) Romans 1:3; Galatians 4:4 (cp. 1QS 11:21). Also of plants 1 Cor 15:37. Of fruits ἔκ τινος be produced by a tree Mt 21:19 (cp. X., Mem. 3, 6, 13 ὁ ἐκ τ. χώρας γιγνόμενος σῖτος). W. ἀπό τινος foll. Ox 1081 (SJCh), 11 γε̣[ινόμε]νον, 14 γέγ[ονος], 14f γε[ι]νομεν[ον], 19 γέγονος.

[Geert van den Bos]

The first/primary definition of γινομαι in BDAG is this:

1. to come into being through process of birth or natural production, be born, be produced ....

Paul clearly used γινομαι in that sense in Galatians 4:4.

Galatians 4:4 (NRSV) But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law...

Galatians 4:4 (NA27) ὅτε δὲ ἦλθεν τὸ πλήρωμα τοῦ χρόνου, ἐξαπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ, γενόμενον ἐκ γυναικός, γενόμενον ὑπὸ νόμον

But in the same Galatians 4, in v.23 and v.29, γεννάω is used.

v. 23 ἀλλ' ὁ μὲν ἐκ τῆς παιδίσκης κατὰ σάρκα γεγέννηται, ὁ δὲ ἐκ τῆς ἐλευθέρας δι' ἐπαγγελίας
ESV But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise

v. 29 ἀλλ' ὥσπερ τότε ὁ κατὰ σάρκα γεννηθεὶς ἐδίωκεν τὸν κατὰ πνεῦμα, οὕτως καὶ νῦν.
ESV But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now

So the γενόμενον in v.4 must denote something else, like ( Aramaic Bible in Plain English): But when the end of time arrived, God sent his Son and he was from a woman and was under The Written Law,


Vulgata has:
v.4, at ubi venit plenitudo temporis misit Deus Filium suum factum ex muliere factum sub lege

v.23, sed qui de ancilla secundum carnem natus est qui autem de libera per repromissionem

v.29, sed quomodo tunc qui secundum carnem natus fuerat persequebatur eum qui secundum spiritum ita et nunc

[John Reece]

Hey that's great, all the 26 occurrences of γενόμενος in NT:

http://biblehub.com/greek/genomenos_1096.htm

I no case: "was born".

It occurs 3 times in Philippians:



So it is also in the next verse Philippians 2:8 -- and we didn't that into account

7ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος: καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος 8ἐταπείνωσεν ἑαυτὸν γενόμενος ὑπήκοος μέχρι θανάτου, θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ.

The first/primary definition of γινομαι in BDAG is this:

1. to come into being through process of birth or natural production, be born, be produced ....

Paul clearly used γινομαι in that sense in Galatians 4:4.

Galatians 4:4 (NRSV) But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law...

Galatians 4:4 (NA27) ὅτε δὲ ἦλθεν τὸ πλήρωμα τοῦ χρόνου, ἐξαπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ, γενόμενον ἐκ γυναικός, γενόμενον ὑπὸ νόμον

[Geert van den Bos]

Actually, no, that's not what "indivisible" means, and it's not what ἄτομος meant in the ancient world. An indivisible is, itself, a unit which cannot be divided. But the ancients would not have thought that it was eternal, nor that there weren't other ἄτομοι before and after that particular one. Those who believed in the existence of indivisibles thought that they composed the continuum, despite the fact that the continuum itself can be infinitely divided.

it is about time -- the indivisible moment is the smallest unit of time.

This is completely anachronistic. Paul had no conception of "scientific research."

I didn't say that.

Absolutely nothing in this passage indicates that it was about attitude or a state of mind.

the beforegoing verses said so. See above.

Even if that is true, it doesn't grant you license to apply speculative numerology without any good basis for believing the author utilized such numerology.

There are five missing years, since Abraham left Charan when 75 years old.

I ask for evidence that Paul utilized gematria, and instead you simply analyze random gematria from non-Pauline sources.

which were about time and eternity.

What evidence is there that Paul understood or utilized gematria?

even his mentioning of the indivisible moment.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

"indivisible" means that time cannot be endlessly split up in ever more fractions of a second; that there is a hard core in time that is eternal, even like a kernel or a seed.

Actually, no, that's not what "indivisible" means, and it's not what ἄτομος meant in the ancient world. An indivisible is, itself, a unit which cannot be divided. But the ancients would not have thought that it was eternal, nor that there weren't other ἄτομοι before and after that particular one. Those who believed in the existence of indivisibles thought that they composed the continuum, despite the fact that the continuum itself can be infinitely divided.

And Paul says it is "mystery" -- i.e. not subject to scientific research; not a statement that can be proved or disproved.

This is completely anachronistic. Paul had no conception of "scientific research."

You can compare it to the two trees mentioned in Genesis 1:11-12, God asked for "ets pri oseh pri" ( a tree that is a fruit [in which is seed] and makes a fruit [in which is seed ]) and the earth brought forth "ets oseh pri" (a tree that itself is not a fruit but makes a fruit [in which is seed])

Above I stated already tht this is about "to be" and "to become", i.e. Greek "einai" versus "ginomai".

God asked for something that both is and becomes, while the earth brought forth something that still has to become (fruit in which is seed).

It is the mystery of the bible.

Pareidolic eisegesis.

It was about
ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος: καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος

But he emptied himself taking the form of a servant, in likeness of men "having become"; and in outward form (he was) found as a man.

It being about a certain state of mind (like already said above), a certain attitude.

Absolutely nothing in this passage indicates that it was about attitude or a state of mind. The words μορφή and ὀμοιματι are references to appearance and physical form.

The number of 430 years is a weird number and draws attention.

Even if that is true, it doesn't grant you license to apply speculative numerology without any good basis for believing the author utilized such numerology.

Growth is a matter of time.

Genesis 2:5 says: "nothing had yet grown" -- i.e. there was no time yet.
Next v. 6 "a mist went up from the earth, etc." -- This "mist" being the source of time (even as living water) LXX has πηγὴ δὲ ἀνέβαινεν ἐκ τῆς γῆς;
same πηγὴ found in both John and Revelation (indication that they are from the same author).

John 4:14, ὃς δ' ἂν πίῃ ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος οὗ ἐγὼ δώσω αὐτῷ, οὐ μὴ διψήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ τὸ ὕδωρ ὃ δώσω αὐτῷ γενήσεται ἐν αὐτῷ πηγὴ ὕδατος ἁλλομένου εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Before John had written, John 1:4, ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων: in it (the word) was life and the life was the light of men.

So this is about the word "mist", i.e. Hebrew "ed", which has gematrial clue.

Rabbi Ginsburgh: http://www.inner.org/string/string.htm


"One river flows from Eden to the garden, which thereafter, leaving the garden, divides into the four great rivers of the earth."

"which thereafter, leaving the garden " -- That's not in the bibletext -- IMO it shows that Rabbi Ginsburgh didn't "get it", viz. that it is about "the indivisible moment", i.e. eternity in time.

And it is hard to get. I just do try my best.

I ask for evidence that Paul utilized gematria, and instead you simply analyze random gematria from non-Pauline sources. What evidence is there that Paul understood or utilized gematria? I am not asking what numerological significance you can manufacture out of random passages, or which others before you have manufactured. I am asking for evidence from Paul's work that shows Paul believed that the numeric value of words had theological importance.

[Geert van den Bos]

Hey that's great, all the 26 occurrences of γενόμενος in NT:

http://biblehub.com/greek/genomenos_1096.htm

I no case: "was born".

It occurs 3 times in Philippians:

Philippians 2:7 V-APM-NMS
GRK: ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος
NAS: of a bond-servant, [and] being made in the likeness
KJV: of a servant, and was made in
INT: [the] likeness of men having become

Philippians 2:8 V-APM-NMS
GRK: ἐταπείνωσεν ἑαυτὸν γενόμενος ὑπήκοος μέχρι
NAS: Himself by becoming obedient
KJV: himself, and became obedient
INT: he humbled himself having become obedient unto

Philippians 3:6 V-APM-NMS
GRK: ἐν νόμῳ γενόμενος ἄμεμπτος
NAS: which is in the Law, found blameless.
KJV: is in the law, blameless.
INT: in [the] law having become blameless

So it is also in the next verse Philippians 2:8 -- and we didn't that into account

7ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος: καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος 8ἐταπείνωσεν ἑαυτὸν γενόμενος ὑπήκοος μέχρι θανάτου, θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ.

[Geert van den Bos]

I'm not seeing how you can possibly justify the idea that ἄτομος implies that there was neither time before nor after. "Indivisible" does not mean "sole" or "only."

"indivisible" means that time cannot be endlessly split up in ever more fractions of a second; that there is a hard core in time that is eternal, even like a kernel or a seed.
And Paul says it is "mystery" -- i.e. not subject to scientific research; not a statement that can be proved or disproved.

You can compare it to the two trees mentioned in Genesis 1:11-12, God asked for "ets pri oseh pri" ( a tree that is a fruit [in which is seed] and makes a fruit [in which is seed ]) and the earth brought forth "ets oseh pri" (a tree that itself is not a fruit but makes a fruit [in which is seed])

Above I stated already tht this is about "to be" and "to become", i.e. Greek "einai" versus "ginomai".

God asked for something that both is and becomes, while the earth brought forth something that still has to become (fruit in which is seed).

It is the mystery of the bible.

The fact that there were other words which also meant "born" doesn't alter the fact that γίνομαι meant "to be born." All three words are used to refer to birth.

It was about
ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος: καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος

But he emptied himself taking the form of a servant, in likeness of men "having become"; and in outward form (he was) found as a man.

It being about a certain state of mind (like already said above), a certain attitude.

People use to overrule you. It being not so with you. Like Jesus you should be πάντων δοῦλος, servant of all (Mark 10:44)

Once again, numbers do not imply numerology.

The number of 430 years is a weird number and draws attention.

Rashi on Exodus 12:40,

was four hundred and thirty years: Altogether, from the time that Isaac was born, until now, were 400 years. From the time that Abraham had seed [i.e., had a child, the prophecy] “that your seed will be strangers” (Gen. 15:13) was fulfilled; and there were another 30 years from the decree “between the parts” (Gen 15:10) until Isaac was born. It is impossible, however, to say that [they spent 400 years] in Egypt alone, because Kehath [the grandfather of Moses] was [one] of those who came with Jacob. Go and figure all his years, all the years of his son Amram, and Moses’ 80 years; you will not find them [to be] that many, and perforce, Kehath lived many of his years before he descended to Egypt, and many of Amram’s years are included in the years of Kehath, and many of Moses’ years are included in Amram’s years. Hence, you will not find 400 years counting from their arrival in Egypt. You are compelled, perforce, to say that the other dwellings [which the Patriarchs settled] were also called being “sojournings” and even in Hebron, as it is said: “where Abraham and Isaac sojourned (גָּרוּ) ” (Gen. 35:27), and [Scripture] states also “the land of their sojournings in which they sojourned” (Exod. 6:4). Therefore, you must say that [the prophecy] “your seed will be strangers” [commences] when he [Abraham] had offspring. And only when you count 400 years from the time that Isaac was born, you will find 210 years from their entry into Egypt. This is one of the things that [the Sages] changed for King Ptolemy. — [from Mechilta, Meg. 9a]

The vast majority of documents throughout history which contain numbers have nothing to do with numerology. If you want to assert that Paul was influenced by numerology, you're going to need stronger evidence than the fact that he sometimes writes numbers in his texts.

Growth is a matter of time.

Genesis 2:5 says: "nothing had yet grown" -- i.e. there was no time yet.
Next v. 6 "a mist went up from the earth, etc." -- This "mist" being the source of time (even as living water) LXX has πηγὴ δὲ ἀνέβαινεν ἐκ τῆς γῆς;
same πηγὴ found in both John and Revelation (indication that they are from the same author).

John 4:14, ὃς δ' ἂν πίῃ ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος οὗ ἐγὼ δώσω αὐτῷ, οὐ μὴ διψήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ τὸ ὕδωρ ὃ δώσω αὐτῷ γενήσεται ἐν αὐτῷ πηγὴ ὕδατος ἁλλομένου εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Before John had written, John 1:4, ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν, καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων: in it (the word) was life and the life was the light of men.

So this is about the word "mist", i.e. Hebrew "ed", which has gematrial clue.

Rabbi Ginsburgh: http://www.inner.org/string/string.htm

Four Forces from One

The ratio 1:4 (“one to four” or “one becoming four”) is one of the pillars of creation as revealed in the beginning of the Torah. We will here observe four phenomena from Genesis based upon the ratio 1:4.

The two letters alef (= 1) and dalet (= 4) form together the word for “vapor.” In the beginning of creation, the “vapor” rose from the earth to moisten the earth for the sake of the creation of man.

One river flows from Eden to the garden, which thereafter, leaving the garden, divides into the four great rivers of the earth.

“The Tree of Life” (etz ha’chaim) = 233. “The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil” (etz hada’at tov v’rah) = 932. 932 = 4 times 233. Thus the ratio of the two trees is “one to four” (the “one” being the Tree of Life and the resulting “four” being the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil).

The word “good” (tov, the positive force of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil) = 17. The word “life” (chaim, of the Tree of Life) = 68. 17:68 = 1:4. The word for “life” possesses four letters. The average value of each of its letters is “good.” Thus we see that the fundamental force of “life” (of the Tree of Life) is in fact the positive force of “good” (inherent in the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil). The two trees thus create an infinite cycle of Divine energy.

To conclude, the most obvious phenomenon in the Torah related to the four forces of nature deriving from one, is that God’s essential Name Havayah is composed of four letters. “God is One.” In the future it will become revealed that “God is One and His Name is One.” “His Name” refers to the four letters of Havayah. This is the ultimate revelation of the Divine “unified field theory.”

"One river flows from Eden to the garden, which thereafter, leaving the garden, divides into the four great rivers of the earth."

"which thereafter, leaving the garden " -- That's not in the bibletext -- IMO it shows that Rabbi Ginsburgh didn't "get it", viz. that it is about "the indivisible moment", i.e. eternity in time.

And it is hard to get. I just do try my best.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

"the last trumpet" occurs within "the indivisible moment" -- like everything else too, since "the indivisible moment" is eternal. Hebrew "rega" occurs in Exodus 33:5, if I go up into your midst for one moment, I will destroy you i.e. when out of the chain of "(indivisible) moments of time" one moment is taken away, all is away.

"Second" being a rather meaningful word. That after this moment comes a second moment in fact is a miracle, the miracle of time.

I'm not seeing how you can possibly justify the idea that ἄτομος implies that there was neither time before nor after. "Indivisible" does not mean "sole" or "only."

Job 3:3 LXX . ἀπόλοιτο ἡ ἡμέρα ἐν ᾗ ἐγεννήθην καὶ ἡ νύξ ἐν ᾗ εἶπαν ἰδοὺ ἄρσεν

There is also another word for "born"- τίκτω, Luke 2:11, ὅτι ἐτέχθη ὑμῖν σήμερον σωτὴρ ὅς ἐστιν Χριστὸς κύριος ἐν πόλει Δαυίδ -

It seeming to be more or less after Psalms 2:7 (because of σήμερον)
κύριος εἶπεν πρός με υἱός μου εἶ σύ ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε.

I saw τίκτω is also used in LXX;
so they apparently knew difference in meaning between "gi(g)nomai", "tikto" and "gennao".

The fact that there were other words which also meant "born" doesn't alter the fact that γίνομαι meant "to be born." All three words are used to refer to birth.

Not true.

Mark 1:4, ἐγένετο Ἰωάννης [ὁ] βαπτίζων ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ καὶ κηρύσσων βάπτισμα μετανοίας εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν.

Yes, the word could also be used in other contexts. That doesn't change the fact that it also refers to birth. And when something "becomes in human likeness," as in Philippians 2, that's a fairly obvious case where it refers to birth.

He came up with the 430 years;

That this number is used in Exodus 12 also already was an hint of the numerical world behind the written Torah (like also the number of 318 trained servants in Gnesis 14:14).

Once again, numbers do not imply numerology. The vast majority of documents throughout history which contain numbers have nothing to do with numerology. If you want to assert that Paul was influenced by numerology, you're going to need stronger evidence than the fact that he sometimes writes numbers in his texts.

[Geert van den Bos]

This is quite obviously false. The ἄτομος which Paul mentions in 1 Cor 15:52 quite explicitly does have time before it, since it occurs "at the last trumpet" (ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ σάλπιγγι) and since Paul is talking about the future, in this passage ("we will not all die, but we will all be changed;" πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα).

"the last trumpet" occurs within "the indivisible moment" -- like everything else too, since "the indivisible moment" is eternal. Hebrew "rega" occurs in Exodus 33:5, if I go up into your midst for one moment, I will destroy you i.e. when out of the chain of "(indivisible) moments of time" one moment is taken away, all is away.

"Second" being a rather meaningful word. That after this moment comes a second moment in fact is a miracle, the miracle of time.

Apologies. As I mentioned, my Hebrew is quite poor. The form ילד is the stem, while the word in Lev 25:45 is הוֹלִ֖ידוּ, which is the word in Hiphil form, perfect tense, 3rd person plural. So, while ילד is "to beget" or "to bear [children]," the word הוֹלִ֖ידוּ translates to something like "have been born/begotten." So, again, the translators of the Septuagint obviously associated γίνομαι with birth.

Job 3:3 LXX . ἀπόλοιτο ἡ ἡμέρα ἐν ᾗ ἐγεννήθην καὶ ἡ νύξ ἐν ᾗ εἶπαν ἰδοὺ ἄρσεν

There is also another word for "born"- τίκτω, Luke 2:11, ὅτι ἐτέχθη ὑμῖν σήμερον σωτὴρ ὅς ἐστιν Χριστὸς κύριος ἐν πόλει Δαυίδ -

It seeming to be more or less after Psalms 2:7 (because of σήμερον)
κύριος εἶπεν πρός με υἱός μου εἶ σύ ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε.

I saw τίκτω is also used in LXX;
so they apparently knew difference in meaning between "gi(g)nomai", "tikto" and "gennao".

Because that is what γίνομαι means when applied to humans.

Not true.

Mark 1:4, ἐγένετο Ἰωάννης [ὁ] βαπτίζων ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ καὶ κηρύσσων βάπτισμα μετανοίας εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν.

Yes, in Galatians 3, Paul is claiming that Jesus is Abraham's seed. That says nothing at all about whether Paul utilized gematria in forming or practicing his theology.

He came up with the 430 years;

That this number is used in Exodus 12 also already was an hint of the numerical world behind the written Torah (like also the number of 318 trained servants in Gnesis 14:14).

[Boxing Pythagoras]

it describes Paul's notion of time and eternity, things happening "immediately" with no "before" or "after"

This is quite obviously false. The ἄτομος which Paul mentions in 1 Cor 15:52 quite explicitly does have time before it, since it occurs "at the last trumpet" (ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ σάλπιγγι) and since Paul is talking about the future, in this passage ("we will not all die, but we will all be changed;" πάντες οὐ κοιμηθησόμεθα, πάντες δὲ ἀλλαγησόμεθα).

Just that Hebrew has "holid" = to beget; give birth.

Apologies. As I mentioned, my Hebrew is quite poor. The form ילד is the stem, while the word in Lev 25:45 is הוֹלִ֖ידוּ, which is the word in Hiphil form, perfect tense, 3rd person plural. So, while ילד is "to beget" or "to bear [children]," the word הוֹלִ֖ידוּ translates to something like "have been born/begotten." So, again, the translators of the Septuagint obviously associated γίνομαι with birth.

why and how is that clear?

Because that is what γίνομαι means when applied to humans.

Paul tries to explain here how Jesus is Abraham's promised seed.

Yes, in Galatians 3, Paul is claiming that Jesus is Abraham's seed. That says nothing at all about whether Paul utilized gematria in forming or practicing his theology.

[Geert van den Bos]

This phrase in 1 Cor 15:52 is not describing the Incarnation, at all. Paul is talking about the general resurrection, in that passage. It's completely eisegetical to attempt to shoehorn Philippians 2:5-7 into Paul's ἄτομος.

it describes Paul's notion of time and eternity, things happening "immediately" with no "before" or "after"

The first time I provided them, they came straight from the LSJ Lexicon. Both times, I included the references, so that you could check the context for yourself, if you doubted the gloss. However, here's yet another one which comes from a Biblical source:

Source: Leviticus 25:45

You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property.

© Copyright Original Source

The Hebrew word, here, is ילד which most certainly means "to be born." The translators of the Septuagint obviously thought that γίνομαι means "to be born" because that is the word which they used to translate ילד.

Just that Hebrew has "holid" = to beget; give birth.



Paul's ἄτομος.[/quote] it describes Paul's notion of time and eternity, things happening "immediately" with no "before" or "after"

Yes, because that is clearly Paul's intention.

why and how is that clear?

You're still just grasping at straws, here. The fact that Paul mentions a number is not evidence that Paul subscribed to numerological views.

Paul tries to explain here how Jesus is Abraham's promised seed.

[Boxing Pythagoras]

It happens (becomes) in Paul's "indivisible moment", 1Corinthians 15:52, ἐν ἀτόμῳ, ἐν ῥιπῇ ὀφθαλμοῦ

This phrase in 1 Cor 15:52 is not describing the Incarnation, at all. Paul is talking about the general resurrection, in that passage. It's completely eisegetical to attempt to shoehorn Philippians 2:5-7 into Paul's ἄτομος.

-- they don't say a thing being ripped out of context from extra-biblical sources.

The first time I provided them, they came straight from the LSJ Lexicon. Both times, I included the references, so that you could check the context for yourself, if you doubted the gloss. However, here's yet another one which comes from a Biblical source:

Source: Leviticus 25:45

You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property.

© Copyright Original Source

The Hebrew word, here, is ילד which most certainly means "to be born." The translators of the Septuagint obviously thought that γίνομαι means "to be born" because that is the word which they used to translate ילד.

καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν υἱῶν τῶν παροίκων τῶν ὄντων ἐν ὑμῖν ἀπὸ τούτων κτήσεσθε καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν συγγενῶν αὐτῶν ὅσοι ἂν γένωνται ἐν τῇ γῇ ὑμῶν ἔστωσαν ὑμῖν εἰς κατάσχεσιν

but you cling to your translation "born".

Yes, because that is clearly Paul's intention.

Paul mentions the 430 years of Exodus 12:40 in Galatians 3:17, This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

The exodus occurring 400 years after the birth of Isaac, i.e. 500 years after the birth of Abraham. So the "promise" must have been made when Abraham was 70 years old. But Abraham was 75 years when leaving Charan (Genesis 12:4), while between Genesis 12 and Genesis 15 (about the "covenant between the pieces") many things did happen, that you might think "the covenant ratified by God" must have taken place when Abraham was at least 80.

Paul must have known this, if not then he is not a very reliable source.

I seems to be a play with numbers , ie. gematrial. The number of missing five years coinciding the value of the letter "hey" that was added to the name Abram? I would think so.

430 is gematria of "nefesh" = soul, the soul Jesus was ready to give away as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45), i.e. the wine of which he said: "this is my blood of the covenant"

In Egypt the soul was trapped like a bird in a cage.

You're still just grasping at straws, here. The fact that Paul mentions a number is not evidence that Paul subscribed to numerological views.