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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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John 1, and Philippians 2:5-7.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    Always a human being; not first God and later becoming man.
    Then who is it that is referred to in this scripture?
    Phil. 2:4 μὴ τὰ ἑαυτῶν ἕκαστος σκοποῦντες ἀλλὰ [καὶ] τὰ ἑτέρων ἕκαστοι.
    Phil. 2:5 Τοῦτο φρονεῖτε ἐν ὑμῖν ὃ καὶ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, 6 ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ, 7 ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος

    NRSV: Phil. 2:4 Let each of you look not to your own interests, but to the interests of others. 5 Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus,
    6 who, though he was in the form of God,
    did not regard equality with God
    as something to be exploited,
    7 but emptied himself,
    taking the form of a slave,
    being born in human likeness.
    And being found in human form,

    TNIV: Phil. 2:4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
    Phil. 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same attitude of mind Christ Jesus had:
    Phil. 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.

    Who is it that was "in the form [or nature] of God" and subsequently was "born [or made] in human likeness?"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by John Reece View Post

      Who is it that was "in the form [or nature] of God"
      a human being

      Originally posted by John Reece View Post
      and subsequently was "born [or made] in human likeness?"
      it reads:
      καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος

      ie. in appearance found as man.






      it being rather obscure reasoning.

      I think Paul has with μορφή some same thing in mind as Rashi with "d'yukan".

      Rashi on Genessis 1:27,
      in the image of God He created him: It explains to you that the image that was prepared for him was the image of the likeness of his Creator. — [from B.B. 58a]
      image of the likeness of his Creator = צלם דיוקן יצורו, "tzelem d'yukan yotsro".

      Before Rashi did already state:
      And God created man in his image: In the form that was made for him, for everything [else] was created with a command, whereas he [man] was created with the hands (of God), as it is written (Ps. 139:5): “and You placed Your hand upon me.” Man was made with a seal, like a coin, which is made by means of a die

      Elsewhere Jesus was called "image of the inviisble God" ,εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, (Colossians 1:15) which might denote the same.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
        it reads:
        καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος

        ie. in appearance found as man.
        To be fair, it does also read:

        ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος

        in {form, likeness} of man was he born
        Last edited by Boxing Pythagoras; 11-11-2014, 12:26 PM.
        "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
        --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by John Reece View Post
          Then who is it that is referred to in this scripture?

          Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
          a human being
          My question was not "what is referred to in this scripture (Philippians 2:4-7)?"

          My question was "who is referred to in this scripture (Philippians 2:4-7)?"

          Why is your answer evasive?
          Last edited by John Reece; 11-11-2014, 12:30 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
            To be fair, it does also read:

            ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος

            in {form, likeness} of man was he born
            γενόμενος is not "born" -
            It is a form of γίνομαι = to become, happen.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by John Reece View Post
              My question was not "what is referred to in this scripture (Philippians 2:4-7)?"

              My question was "who is referred to in this scripture (Philippians 2:4-7)?"
              About Jesus Christ, a human being, not about God (the Father).

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                γενόμενος is not "born" -
                It is a form of γίνομαι = to become, happen.
                True, but γίνομαι in the context of humans is generally synonymous with birth.
                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                  True, but γίνομαι in the context of humans is generally synonymous with birth.
                  In biased translations.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                    About Jesus Christ, a human being, not about God (the Father).
                    What was the difference between the nature/form of Jesus Christ when he was in the nature/form of God (ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων) ― as the text specifically states, on the one hand; and, on the other hand ― as the text specifically states, the nature/form of Jesus Christ after he had "emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form (NRSV)" [ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος]?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                      In biased translations.
                      I'm talking about general Greek literature, not just in translations of Philippians.
                      Source: LSJ Lexicon entry for γίγνομαι

                      1. of persons, to be born, νέον γεγαώς new born, Od.19.400; ὑπὸ Τμώλῳ γεγαῶτας born (and so living) under Tmolus, Il.2.866; “ἢ πρόσθε θανεῖν ἢ ἔπειτα γ.” Hes.Op.175; γιγνομέναισι λάχη τάδ᾽ . . ἐκράνθη at our birth, A.Eu.347; “γ. ἔκ τινος” Il.5.548, Hdt.7.11; “πατρὸς ἐκ ταὐτοῦ” E.IA406, cf. Isoc.5.136; “σέθεν . . ἐξ αἵματος” A.Th. 142; less freq. “ἀπό τινος” Hdt.8.22, etc.; “ἐσθλῶν” E.Hec.380, etc.; γεγονέναι κακῶς, καλῶς, Ar.Eq.218, Isoc.7.37, etc.; κάλλιον, εὖ, Hdt. 1.146, 3.69; τὸ μὴ γενέσθαι not to have been born, A.Fr.401: freq. with Numerals, “ἔτεα τρία καὶ δέκα γεγονώς” Hdt.1.119; “ἀμφὶ τὰ πέντε ἢ ἑκκαίδεκα ἔτη γενόμενος” X.Cyr.1.4.16; “γεγονὼς ἔτη περὶ πεντήκοντα” D. 21.154; οἱ ὑπὲρ τὰ στρατεύσιμα ἔτη γεγονότες those of an age beyond . . , X.Cyr.1.2.4: c. gen., “γεγονὼς πλειόνων ἐτῶν ἢ πεντήκοντα” Pl.Lg. 951c, etc.: rarely with ordinals, “ὀγδοηκοστὸν ἔτος γεγονώς” Luc.Macr. 22, cf. Plu.Phil.18.

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      Are you saying these are all "biased" translations of γίγνομαι?
                      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                        What was the difference between the nature/form of Jesus Christ when he was in the nature/form of God (ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων) ― as the text specifically states, on the one hand; and, on the other hand ― as the text specifically states, the nature/form of Jesus Christ after he had "emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form (NRSV)" [ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου λαβών, ἐν ὁμοιώματι ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος καὶ σχήματι εὑρεθεὶς ὡς ἄνθρωπος]?


                        I thought it was about man created in the image of God, of which Rashi said that man was made by means of a seal, like a coin that is made by means of a stamp.

                        So the image of God with which he made man is like a seal, which shows God's portrait.

                        The same idea is expressed by Mark in his question about paying taxes to Caesar. "Whose image and whose inscription" is on the coin? "Inscription" was also on the cross. -- so that you might know who was crucified: Man created in (by means of) the image of God.

                        You also might think that the inscription showed up the number 666. Revelation 13:18 indeed seeming to be about a coin (no one could sell or buy without it).

                        "The seal of God" being nothing else than his own name, with which he sealed the bible and creation in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", at the completion of creation (Genesis 1:31-2:1).
                        Where the letter "hey"of "hashishi" is left out, you are left with just "yom shishi" of which gematria is 666.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                          I'm talking about general Greek literature, not just in translations of Philippians.
                          [cite=LSJ Lexicon entry for γίγνομαι]
                          Are you saying these are all "biased" translations of γίγνομαι?
                          It was about γίνομαι, not γίγνομαι

                          But I found:

                          http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-f...pic.php?t=1404

                          gignomai is a deponent. ginomai is an other form with exactly the same meaning. Ginomai is mostly found in later Greek and also in the Koine (New Testament Greek, ...).
                          Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 11-11-2014, 02:45 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                            I thought it was about man created in the image of God, of which Rashi said that man was made by means of a seal, like a coin that is made by means of a stamp.

                            So the image of God with which he made man is like a seal, which shows God's portrait.

                            The same idea is expressed by Mark in his question about paying taxes to Caesar. "Whose image and whose inscription" is on the coin? "Inscription" was also on the cross. -- so that you might know who was crucified: Man created in (by means of) the image of God.

                            You also might think that the inscription showed up the number 666. Revelation 13:18 indeed seeming to be about a coin (no one could sell or buy without it).

                            "The seal of God" being nothing else than his own name, with which he sealed the bible and creation in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", at the completion of creation (Genesis 1:31-2:1).
                            Where the letter "hey"of "hashishi" is left out, you are left with just "yom shishi" of which gematria is 666.
                            Why are you avoiding and refusing to answer my question?

                            Is it that you cannot answer my question that you instead keep going off onto rabbit trails of cabalistic irrelevancies?
                            Last edited by John Reece; 11-11-2014, 03:02 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                              Why are you avoiding and refusing to answer my question?
                              I did answer.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                                I did answer.
                                Geert,

                                You have reminded me of why I requested that you and all other cabalists be banned from posting in any of my threads.

                                I made an exception in the OP of the last thread that I started; however, your response above has prompted me to reverse that exception and to renew my request that you not be permitted to post in that thread (the last thread I started) or in any other thread that I may start.

                                Comment

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