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Daniel 7:14

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  • Daniel 7:14

    Daniel 7
    13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


    Can a plausible argument be made that God is receiving the kingdom from Jesus, rather than the other way around?

  • #2
    Does no one know the answer?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      Does no one know the answer?
      It is so improbable, I wonder why you ask.

      Comment


      • #4
        Why is it improbable?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          Why is it improbable?
          That's why I did not answer before now; I did not care to become involved in a debate about something quite obvious that you do not see.

          It is too late at night for me to pursue this now; I simply do not have the energy.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
            Daniel 7
            13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
            14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


            Can a plausible argument be made that God is receiving the kingdom from Jesus, rather than the other way around?
            If you think it is conceivable that a plausible argument can be made that God is receiving the kingdom from Jesus, rather than the other way around, why not say why you think that? or, say why and/or how such a notion has entered your mind? or, tell us what you see in the text, the context, and/or the rest of the Bible that indicates the possibility of a plausible argument that can be made that God is receiving the kingdom from Jesus, rather than the other way around.

            Comment


            • #7
              There are textual variants in the old Greek versions that witness to the controversial nature of this passage in early Christian and rabbinic exegesis. Some see two or only one anthropomorphic representation(s) of God and even the Ancient of Days was sometimes seen as an angelic figure, eg, the heavenly prince of the third heaven. A good commentary can elucidate some of the various text critical options and interpretations. I'm told that John J. Collins' Hermeneia commentary is especially good.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                Daniel 7
                13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
                14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


                Can a plausible argument be made that God is receiving the kingdom from Jesus, rather than the other way around?
                God's Kingdom only was established through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  There are textual variants in the old Greek versions that witness to the controversial nature of this passage in early Christian and rabbinic exegesis. Some see two or only one anthropomorphic representation(s) of God and even the Ancient of Days was sometimes seen as an angelic figure, eg, the heavenly prince of the third heaven. A good commentary can elucidate some of the various text critical options and interpretations. I'm told that John J. Collins' Hermeneia commentary is especially good.
                  With reference to the question posed in the OP, I have read all the various text critical options and interpretations in four different exegetical commentaries: John J. Collins' Hermeneia; James A. Montgomery's International Critical Commentary, Hartman and Di Lella's Anchor Yale Bible, and John E. Goldengay's Word Biblical Commentary ― all the while specifically searching for an exegetical basis for "a plausible argument that God is receiving the kingdom from Jesus, rather than the other way around". I could not find any exegetical basis for such an argument in any of the four commentaries listed above.

                  How about you, robrecht? Do you find any of the text critical options and interpretations to provide an exegetical basis for "a plausible argument that God is receiving the kingdom from Jesus, rather than the other way around"?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                    With reference to the question posed in the OP, I have read all the various text critical options and interpretations in four different exegetical commentaries: John J. Collins' Hermeneia; James A. Montgomery's International Critical Commentary, Hartman and Di Lella's Anchor Yale Bible, and John E. Goldengay's Word Biblical Commentary ― all the while specifically searching for an exegetical basis for "a plausible argument that God is receiving the kingdom from Jesus, rather than the other way around". I could not find any exegetical basis for such an argument in any of the four commentaries listed above.

                    How about you, robrecht? Do you find any of the text critical options and interpretations to provide an exegetical basis for "a plausible argument that God is receiving the kingdom from Jesus, rather than the other way around"?
                    Plausible? No way. But I am very impressed with the number of commentaries you have!
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I underlined the ambiguous pronoun in my opening post. The clearest referent to "him" seems to be the Ancient of Days. The Ancient of Days means God. So if we assume that it refers to the closest other person, it means that God is getting the kingdom from the son of man.

                      Also, the above verse (14) refers to the kingdom as being everlasting, and says that everyone shall serve "him." And a later verse (27) says that the "Most High" is the one who will be served, and who has the everlasting kingdom.

                      Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

                      Although it doesn't strictly have to be so, I would tend to assume that "Most High" refers to God rather than the son of man.

                      And then, finally, there is this verse:

                      1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

                      But the reason I posted here was because I was mainly interested in the grammar involved — not just the common opinions of theologians.
                      Last edited by Obsidian; 09-25-2014, 12:45 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Who gave dominion to the leopard in 7,6? Who killed the beast in 7,11? Who took away dominion from the other beasts in 7,12? How do you understand the role of the Ancient of Days in 7,22? Who gives the kingdoms and dominion in 7,27? Any plausible interpretation of the pronouns in 7,14 should make sense in context.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What robrecht said re Daniel.

                          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          And then, finally, there is this verse:

                          1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                          I thought you would have had 1 Corinthian 15:24 in mind per your OP.

                          During the days of his incarnation, Jesus alluded to Daniel 13 with reference to himself in Matt. 24:30, wherein he referred to himself as "the Son of Man in heaven" (France's translation); He was very clearly and explicitly subject to the Father throughout his incarnation. He was exalted from the status of a human being ― בַר אֱנָשׁ (bar ʾᵉnā), "son of man" ― in Dan. 7:13; and in 7:14 this בַר אֱנָשׁ (bar ʾᵉnā) "son of man" was given authority, glory, sovereign power, and everlasting dominion. (Jesus) Christ had to have received such at his enthronement ― circa AD30 ― (Dan 7:13-14) before he could hand it back to God the Father in 1 Corinthians 15:24.

                          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                          But the reason I posted here was because I was mainly interested in the grammar involved not just the common opinions of theologians.
                          The grammar involved is in harmony with the contextual meaning.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John Reece
                            The grammar involved is in harmony with the contextual meaning.
                            Thanks for the non-answer.

                            "son of man" was given authority, glory, sovereign power, and everlasting dominion. (Jesus) Christ had to have received such at his enthronement ― circa AD30 ― (Dan 7:13-14) before he could hand it back to God the Father in 1 Corinthians 15:24.
                            That doesn't mean that Daniel 7 is referring to the same event as Matthew 24. Matthew 24 does not even refer to AD 30.

                            He was exalted from the status of a human being ― בַר אֱנָשׁ (bar ʾᵉnāš), "son of man" ― in Dan. 7:13
                            It doesn't actually say that. In English, the grammar is ambiguous about who is being exalted.

                            (Jesus) Christ had to have received such at his enthronement ― circa AD30 ― (Dan 7:13-14) before he could hand it back to God the Father in 1 Corinthians 15:24.
                            All peoples didn't worship Jesus in AD 30.

                            Originally posted by Robrecht
                            Who gave dominion to the leopard in 7,6?
                            It doesn't say. Could just as easily be Satan. Could be someone else. I don't think it even matters.

                            Who killed the beast in 7,11? Who took away dominion from the other beasts in 7,12? . . . Who gives the kingdoms and dominion in 7,27?
                            Could be Jesus

                            How do you understand the role of the Ancient of Days in 7,22?
                            It seems to indicate that God is either doing all the fighting himself, or else is helping Jesus fight. I would imagine it's the latter.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You may find that plausible, but have you found any scholars that do?
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment

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