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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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Homage vs worship

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  • Homage vs worship

    Daniel 2:46
    King James Version (KJV)
    46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him.

    Daniel 2:46
    Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
    Nebuchadnezzar’s Response

    46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell down, paid homage to Daniel, and gave orders to present an offering and incense to him.

    46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an offering and sweet odours unto him. (Hebrew Bible, Masoretic Text)

    This is a bit different than my last question. It seems the KJV correctly says "worshipped" and agrees with the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Why do other English translations say homage instead of worship?

    Daniel 2:46
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    Daniel Promoted

    46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face and did homage to Daniel, and gave orders to present to him an offering and [a]fragrant incense.

    Daniel 2:46
    New English Translation (NET)
    46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar bowed down with his face to the ground and paid homage to Daniel. He gave orders to offer sacrifice and incense to him.

    Daniel 2:46
    New International Version (NIV)
    46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him.

    Daniel 2:46
    New Living Translation (NLT)
    Nebuchadnezzar Rewards Daniel

    46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar threw himself down before Daniel and worshiped him, and he commanded his people to offer sacrifices and burn sweet incense before him.

    Not all English translations say homage instead of worship.

    Daniel 2:46
    American Standard Version (ASV)
    46 Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odors unto him.

    Daniel 2:46
    21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
    46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face and worshiped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet incense unto him.

    Daniel 2:46
    Living Bible (TLB)
    46 Then Nebuchadnezzar fell to the ground before Daniel and worshiped him and commanded his people to offer sacrifices and burn sweet incense before

    Isn't there a big difference between the meaning of homage and worship?

    Thank you.

  • #2
    I think, just off the top of my head, that a lot of it is perception... we, in the Western world, perceive "worship" as pertaining to deity, whereas "homage" could be to a king or governor or boss. I would not say, for example, that I "worship" my earthly father, though I certainly have paid homage to him. And, in my own humble but accurate opinion, somehow paying "homage to God" sounds a bit weak, like He's "just another" king or god.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
      Isn't there a big difference between the meaning of homage and worship?
      Not in Hebrew.

      The word rendered "paid homage to" in Daniel 2:46 is סָגַד, which is defined in BDB as "prostrate oneself in worship", and in HALOT as "to bow down in prayer".

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      • #4
        Originally posted by John Reece View Post


        Not in Hebrew.

        The word rendered "paid homage to" in Daniel 2:46 is סָגַד, which is defined in BDB as "prostrate oneself in worship", and in HALOT as "to bow down in prayer".
        Yeah, what JR said!
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #5
          Originally posted by John Reece View Post


          Not in Hebrew.

          The word rendered "paid homage to" in Daniel 2:46 is סָגַד, which is defined in BDB as "prostrate oneself in worship", and in HALOT as "to bow down in prayer".
          What about Greek? Why do some translations say homage and other translations say worship?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
            What about Greek? Why do some translations say homage and other translations say worship?
            Your example was Old Testament, which would be Hebrew. What NT example would you offer? Perhaps Matthew 2:2? The Darby Translation, for example, says "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage." while most other translations use worship or honor or "bow down".
            4352 [e] proskynēsai προσκυνῆσαι to worship V-ANA

            Matthew 2:2 V-ANA
            GRK: καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ
            NAS: and have come to worship Him.
            KJV: and are come to worship him.
            INT: and are come to worship him

            Revelation 19:10 V-ANA
            GRK: ποδῶν αὐτοῦ προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ καὶ
            NAS: at his feet to worship him. But he said
            KJV: his feet to worship him. And
            INT: feet of him to worship to him And

            Revelation 22:8 V-ANA
            GRK: ἔβλεψα ἔπεσα προσκυνῆσαι ἔμπροσθεν τῶν
            NAS: I fell down to worship at the feet
            KJV: I fell down to worship before
            INT: saw I fell down to worship before the

            No difference.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Your example was Old Testament, which would be Hebrew. What NT example would you offer? Perhaps Matthew 2:2? The Darby Translation, for example, says "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage." while most other translations use worship or honor or "bow down".
              4352 [e] proskynēsai προσκυνῆσαι to worship V-ANA

              Matthew 2:2 V-ANA
              GRK: καὶ ἤλθομεν προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ
              NAS: and have come to worship Him.
              KJV: and are come to worship him.
              INT: and are come to worship him

              Revelation 19:10 V-ANA
              GRK: ποδῶν αὐτοῦ προσκυνῆσαι αὐτῷ καὶ
              NAS: at his feet to worship him. But he said
              KJV: his feet to worship him. And
              INT: feet of him to worship to him And

              Revelation 22:8 V-ANA
              GRK: ἔβλεψα ἔπεσα προσκυνῆσαι ἔμπροσθεν τῶν
              NAS: I fell down to worship at the feet
              KJV: I fell down to worship before
              INT: saw I fell down to worship before the

              No difference.
              I noted the Greek translations of Daniel 2:46 in my first post.

              Comment


              • #8
                Wouldn't Revelation 3:9 be an example where proskynew would not mean worship?

                Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (KJV)
                Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. (NASB)
                Look! I will bring some people who belong to Satan's group. They call themselves Jews, but they are not real Jews. They lie. Look, I will make them come and kneel down in front of you. They will know that I have loved you.(WE)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                  I noted the Greek translations of Daniel 2:46 in my first post.
                  Where?
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                    Wouldn't Revelation 3:9 be an example where proskynew would not mean worship?

                    Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (KJV)
                    Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. (NASB)
                    Look! I will bring some people who belong to Satan's group. They call themselves Jews, but they are not real Jews. They lie. Look, I will make them come and kneel down in front of you. They will know that I have loved you.(WE)
                    I don't think so.
                    Source: From Barnes' Notes on the Bible

                    ....

                    Behold, I will make - Greek, "I give" - δίδωμι didōmi; that is, I will arrange matters so that this shall occur. The word implies that he had power to do this, and consequently proves that he has power over the heart of man, and Call secure such a result as he chooses.

                    Them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews - Who profess to be Jews, but are really of the synagogue of Satan. See the notes on Revelation 2:9. The meaning is, that, though they were of Jewish extraction, and boasted much of being Jews, yet they were really under the influence of Satan, and their assemblages deserved to be called his "synagogue."

                    And are not, but do lie - It is a false profession altogether. Compare notes on 1 John 1:6.

                    Behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet - The word rendered "worship" here, means, properly, to full prostrate; and then to do homage, or to worship in the proper sense, as this was commonly done by falling prostrate. See the notes on Matthew 2:2. So far as the word is concerned, it may refer either to spiritual homage, that is, the worship of God; or it may mean respect as shown to superiors. If it is used here in the sense of divine worship properly so called, it means that they would be constrained to come and worship "before them," or in their very presence; if it is used in the more general signification, it means that they would be constrained to show them honor and respect. The latter is the probable meaning; that is, that they would be constrained to acknowledge that they were the children of God, or that God regarded them with his favor. It does not mean necessarily that they would themselves be converted to Christ, but that, as they had been accustomed to revile and oppose those who were true Christians, they would be constrained to come and render them the respect due to those who were sincerely endeavoring to serve their Maker. The truth taught here is, that it is in the power of the Lord Jesus so to turn the hearts of all the enemies of religion that they shall be brought to show respect to it; so to incline the minds of all people that they shall honor the church, or be at least outwardly its friends. Such homage the world shall yet be constrained to pay to it.

                    © Copyright Original Source




                    Hmmmm... I forgot how the CITE tags work?
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                      I noted the Greek translations of Daniel 2:46 in my first post.
                      OK, perhaps we have a problem here. Either you're unaware that Daniel, being part of the Old Testament, was written in Hebrew, or maybe you're playing games?

                      I'm taking you quite seriously until I have reason to believe otherwise, so I'll try to explain better.

                      The Hebrew word John Reese discussed is the word from which all the other translations you cited derive. In other words, all the "translations" you offered are merely attempts to translate the HEBREW word found in the text. When you mentioned GREEK, I assumed (and I think properly so) you wanted some examples from the NEW TESTAMENT, so I looked up some examples of where the GREEK equivalent was sometimes translated "worship" and sometimes "honor" or "homage".

                      Perhaps you can tell us why you're interested in the difference?
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                        What about Greek? Why do some translations say homage and other translations say worship?
                        As you have cited only OT texts, for a Greek example I'll go to the LXX of Daniel 2:46, wherein the rendering of Hebrew סְגִד is προσκυνέω, which in the LEH Septuagint lexicon is defined generally as "to fall down and worship, to do reverence to, to do obeisance to, to prostrate oneself before, to salute".

                        The reason for varying translations of both the Hebrew word and the Greek word is due to the fact that both have similar semantic ranges that allow for differing renderings depending on context and interpretive judgment.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                          As you have cited only OT texts, for a Greek example I'll go to the LXX of Daniel 2:46, wherein the rendering of Hebrew סְגִד is προσκυνέω, which in the LEH Septuagint lexicon is defined generally as "to fall down and worship, to do reverence to, to do obeisance to, to prostrate oneself before, to salute".

                          The reason for varying translations of both the Hebrew word and the Greek word is due to the fact that both have similar semantic ranges that allow for differing renderings depending on context and interpretive judgment.


                          προσκυνέω is also to be found in Matthew 28:16-17,

                          Οἱ δὲ ἕνδεκα μαθηταὶ ἐπορεύθησαν εἰς τὴν Γαλιλαίαν εἰς τὸ ὄρος οὗ ἐτάξατο αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς, καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν προσεκύνησαν, οἱ δὲ ἐδίστασαν.
                          Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.


                          And also in LXX Esther 2:2,
                          καὶ πάντες οἱ ἐν τῇ αὐλῇ προσεκύνουν αὐτῷ οὕτως γὰρ προσέταξεν ὁ βασιλεὺς ποιῆσαι ὁ δὲ μαρδοχαῖος οὐ προσεκύνει αὐτῷ
                          And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gate, bowed, and reverenced Haman: for the king had so commanded concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence.

                          Hebrew: וּמָרְדֳּכַי לֹא יִכְרַע וְלֹא יִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה, "umordachai lo yikra v'lo yisthacheveh" -- which is the princple of the Chess-play -- "yisthacheveh" is from the root "shachah" = to bow; from which also "shach" = Shah (the ruler of Persia) for whom all have to bow.

                          Now might be clear why Matthew 24:29 has: "and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken" - all those who prostrate themselves to celestial signs, after
                          Matthew 16:1, The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.


                          "The sign of the Son of Man" (Matthew 24:30) being like "haot", the sign mentioned in Exodus 3:12, And He said, "For I am with you, and this is the sign for you that it was I Who sent you. When you take the people out of Egypt, you will worship God on this mountain."

                          "I am with you" = אֶהְיֶה עִמָּךְ, "ehyeh immach", cf Matthew 28:20, καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ' ὑμῶν εἰμι = "and see I am with you"


                          "you will worship God on this mountain" --
                          cf. Matthew 28:16, Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain that Jesus had appointed them.


                          Which seems to be the same mountian as mentioned in Matthew 17:1-2, And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.

                          "his face shone like the sun",
                          cf, Matthew 24:29-30, Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 3 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man

                          The beforegoing verse Matthew 16:28, had said, Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
                          cf. Mathew 24:30, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

                          So now we've bound two threads together

                          http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...age-vs-worship and http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ot-seeing-quot
                          Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 01-25-2014, 04:13 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                            As you have cited only OT texts, for a Greek example I'll go to the LXX of Daniel 2:46, wherein the rendering of Hebrew סְגִד is προσκυνέω, which in the LEH Septuagint lexicon is defined generally as "to fall down and worship, to do reverence to, to do obeisance to, to prostrate oneself before, to salute".

                            The reason for varying translations of both the Hebrew word and the Greek word is due to the fact that both have similar semantic ranges that allow for differing renderings depending on context and interpretive judgment.
                            I'm sorry I confused you. It made sense in my head. LOL

                            One example I gave on this passage was from the Hebrew to English.

                            The rest were from the Hebrew to Greek to English.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Christian3 View Post
                              I'm sorry I confused you. It made sense in my head. LOL

                              One example I gave on this passage was from the Hebrew to English.

                              The rest were from the Hebrew to Greek to English.
                              Always best to eliminate the middleman when possible. Go to the source, or as close to the source as you can get.

                              Have you ever played "Post Office", or "Telephone"?
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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