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Biblical Languages 301 Guidelines
This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.
This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.
Forum Rules: Here
This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.
Forum Rules: Here
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Who is Jesus? (not a theological question)
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The write-up here is reasonably comprehensive: though all the "as ifs" are an annoyance, the Biblical assessment itself is good.
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Originally posted by foudroyant View PostNIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).
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Like other teachings from the Bible some will still deny it anyway.
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NIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI think most of the New Testament authors would probably be fairly well characterized as subordinationists, at least some of what they said inspired honest interpretations along these lines. Nicea and Chalcedon and later councils were the result of centuries of theological reflection upon the meaning of the Incarnation.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThe Greek verse you cited is Mt 14,28. It is not John 14,28.
The default setting is Matthew, and my mouse has begun to show signs of age (much like the clicker), but you're spot on there old chap!
This then is John 14:28 (NASB), from the Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece : here
28 ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπον ὑμῖν· ὑπάγω καὶ ἔρχομαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς. εἰ ἠγαπᾶτέ με ἐχάρητε ἂν ὅτι πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα, ὅτι ὁ πατὴρ μείζων μού ἐστιν.
Last edited by Catman; 08-07-2014, 07:29 PM.
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I think most of the New Testament authors would probably be fairly well characterized as subordinationists, at least some of what they said inspired honest interpretations along these lines. Nicea and Chalcedon and later councils were the result of centuries of theological reflection upon the meaning of the Incarnation.
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The force of the second verse, is simply quite magnificent!
Here I am using the ESV @ biblegateway.com, for 1 Corinthians 15: 24
24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
24 εἶτα τὸ τέλος, ὅταν παραδιδῷ τὴν βασιλείαν τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρί, ὅταν καταργήσῃ πᾶσαν ἀρχὴν καὶ πᾶσαν ἐξουσίαν καὶ δύναμιν.
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Originally posted by Catman View PostNB: The first of the two verses, is John 14:28 (for the English, I used the NASB from biblegateway.com)
It reads as follows:
28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
As you probably know by now (referring to my 1st post to BL301), I'm more than a little intrigued by the NA28 -- so here's the same verse from the Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece: here
28 Ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ αὐτῷ ὁ Πέτρος εἶπεν· κύριε, εἰ σὺ εἶ, κέλευσόν με ἐλθεῖν πρός σε ἐπὶ τὰ ὕδατα.
If you know me, you'll know Greek is not my strong suit -- but I know there are more than a few of ye BL301'ers who read it like it's your first languages. So, let's here from y'all then?
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Thanks, foudroyant. I was reading Dr. Carson's commentary on this same verse, and found similar ideas to those of Mounce. I do so enjoy Mounce, too.
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From two Greek dictionaries concerning John 14:28:
a. TDNT: Citing both John 5:18 and John 14:28 it reads:
Nevertheless, John accepts the paradox that he is the Son who is both subject to the Father and yet also one with Him (10:30; 1:1). In other words, He is equal to the Father (3:352-353, isos, Stahlin)
b. Mounce: Jesus declares that, "The Father is greater than I" (14:28; 15:20). This does not suggest inequality in the Trinity, but rather expresses a willing subordination of the Son to the will of the Father (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Greater, page 309).
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NB: The first of the two verses, is John 14:28 (for the English, I used the NASB from biblegateway.com)
It reads as follows:
28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
28 Ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ αὐτῷ ὁ Πέτρος εἶπεν· κύριε, εἰ σὺ εἶ, κέλευσόν με ἐλθεῖν πρός σε ἐπὶ τὰ ὕδατα.
Last edited by Catman; 08-07-2014, 12:54 PM.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostWhen he said that, he was a man. Elsewhere, he said that "Glorify me together with you with the glory that I had before the world was."
The statement doesn't impact on any hierarchy within the Godhead at all, because the Word subordinated himself to the Father's will, and was reduced in status.
However, "doesn't impact" means just that - you would need to examine other areas of scripture, dealing with who he is as God before you could determine whether the Godhead has a hierarchy.
For this study, I'll only be looking at the passage from John 14 & the other from 1 Corinthians 15.
A larger body of passages, would require numerous threads to accomplish that.
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When he said that, he was a man. Elsewhere, he said that "Glorify me together with you with the glory that I had before the world was."
The statement doesn't impact on any hierarchy within the Godhead at all, because the Word subordinated himself to the Father's will, and was reduced in status.
However, "doesn't impact" means just that - you would need to examine other areas of scripture, dealing with who he is as God before you could determine whether the Godhead has a hierarchy.
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widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
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