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Biblical Languages 301 Guidelines

This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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Who is Jesus? (not a theological question)

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  • Who is Jesus? (not a theological question)

    I've been thinking about this today, and wondering how I might word it so that it's not mistaken for a theological question (and chased out of the hallowed halls of BL301). In some sense, it will always be a matter of intense discussion, argument and debate. This is unavoidable.

    This is Biblical Languages, right? Right! In that sense, there has always been one primary passage that gets thrown into these sort of think tanks. It's the one where Jesus says, "....the Father is greater than I." (NASB)

    Having spent some time discussing this matter with various folks, from various religious backgrounds; it's not entirely new to me.

    So, what exactly did Jesus mean when he said this about his/our heavenly Father?
    Is there a pecking order in the heavenly realm?

    What exactly does this mean: '....Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. ....' (ESV) ?

    I look forward to a very enlightening and inspiring read.

  • #2
    When he said that, he was a man. Elsewhere, he said that "Glorify me together with you with the glory that I had before the world was."
    The statement doesn't impact on any hierarchy within the Godhead at all, because the Word subordinated himself to the Father's will, and was reduced in status.
    However, "doesn't impact" means just that - you would need to examine other areas of scripture, dealing with who he is as God before you could determine whether the Godhead has a hierarchy.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • #3
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      When he said that, he was a man. Elsewhere, he said that "Glorify me together with you with the glory that I had before the world was."
      The statement doesn't impact on any hierarchy within the Godhead at all, because the Word subordinated himself to the Father's will, and was reduced in status.
      However, "doesn't impact" means just that - you would need to examine other areas of scripture, dealing with who he is as God before you could determine whether the Godhead has a hierarchy.
      Thank you for the reply.

      For this study, I'll only be looking at the passage from John 14 & the other from 1 Corinthians 15.

      A larger body of passages, would require numerous threads to accomplish that.

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      • #4
        NB: The first of the two verses, is John 14:28 (for the English, I used the NASB from biblegateway.com)
        It reads as follows:

        28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
        As you probably know by now (referring to my 1st post to BL301), I'm more than a little intrigued by the NA28 -- so here's the same verse from the Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece: here

        28 Ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ αὐτῷ ὁ Πέτρος εἶπεν κύριε, εἰ σὺ εἶ, κέλευσόν με ἐλθεῖν πρός σε ἐπὶ τὰ ὕδατα.
        If you know me, you'll know Greek is not my strong suit -- but I know there are more than a few of ye BL301'ers who read it like it's your first languages. So, let's here from y'all then?
        Last edited by Catman; 08-07-2014, 01:54 PM.

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        • #5
          From two Greek dictionaries concerning John 14:28:

          a. TDNT: Citing both John 5:18 and John 14:28 it reads:
          Nevertheless, John accepts the paradox that he is the Son who is both subject to the Father and yet also one with Him (10:30; 1:1). In other words, He is equal to the Father (3:352-353, isos, Stahlin)
          b. Mounce: Jesus declares that, "The Father is greater than I" (14:28; 15:20). This does not suggest inequality in the Trinity, but rather expresses a willing subordination of the Son to the will of the Father (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Greater, page 309).

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          • #6
            Thanks, foudroyant. I was reading Dr. Carson's commentary on this same verse, and found similar ideas to those of Mounce. I do so enjoy Mounce, too.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Catman View Post
              NB: The first of the two verses, is John 14:28 (for the English, I used the NASB from biblegateway.com)
              It reads as follows:

              28 You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I will come to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

              As you probably know by now (referring to my 1st post to BL301), I'm more than a little intrigued by the NA28 -- so here's the same verse from the Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece: here

              28 Ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ αὐτῷ ὁ Πέτρος εἶπεν κύριε, εἰ σὺ εἶ, κέλευσόν με ἐλθεῖν πρός σε ἐπὶ τὰ ὕδατα.

              If you know me, you'll know Greek is not my strong suit -- but I know there are more than a few of ye BL301'ers who read it like it's your first languages. So, let's here from y'all then?
              The Greek verse you cited is Mt 14,28. It is not John 14,28.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #8
                The force of the second verse, is simply quite magnificent!

                Here I am using the ESV @ biblegateway.com, for 1 Corinthians 15: 24

                24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
                Once again, here is the Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece: here

                24 εἶτα τὸ τέλος, ὅταν παραδιδῷ τὴν βασιλείαν τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρί, ὅταν καταργήσῃ πᾶσαν ἀρχὴν καὶ πᾶσαν ἐξουσίαν καὶ δύναμιν.

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                • #9
                  I think most of the New Testament authors would probably be fairly well characterized as subordinationists, at least some of what they said inspired honest interpretations along these lines. Nicea and Chalcedon and later councils were the result of centuries of theological reflection upon the meaning of the Incarnation.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    The Greek verse you cited is Mt 14,28. It is not John 14,28.
                    Thank you, robrecht.

                    The default setting is Matthew, and my mouse has begun to show signs of age (much like the clicker), but you're spot on there old chap!

                    This then is John 14:28 (NASB), from the Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece : here

                    28 ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐγὼ εἶπον ὑμῖν ὑπάγω καὶ ἔρχομαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς. εἰ ἠγαπᾶτέ με ἐχάρητε ἂν ὅτι πορεύομαι πρὸς τὸν πατέρα, ὅτι ὁ πατὴρ μείζων μού ἐστιν.
                    Last edited by Catman; 08-07-2014, 08:29 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      I think most of the New Testament authors would probably be fairly well characterized as subordinationists, at least some of what they said inspired honest interpretations along these lines. Nicea and Chalcedon and later councils were the result of centuries of theological reflection upon the meaning of the Incarnation.
                      The author, Jonathan Swift, wrote a nice article about this. I came upon it, whilst going through some very old encyclopedias; and included it in a little book I wrote entitled: A Play On Words. (it's not published yet, but the essay I'm sure is something one might be able to Google.) It's titled simply, 'The Doctrine of the Trinity' by Jonathan Swift (1667 - 1745)

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                      • #12
                        NIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                          NIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).
                          Gutsy play by Schneider for all that scripture shows it.
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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                          • #14
                            Like other teachings from the Bible some will still deny it anyway.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                              NIDNTT: Although completely co-ordinated with God, he remains subordinate to him (cf. 1 Cor. 15:28) (2:80, God, J. Schneider).
                              I'm going to post up a little of D.A. Carson, and would'nt mind at all if you put up the appropriate stanza or two (no more - we don't wanna run into copyright issues here.)

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