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Greek in 1 Cor 6:19

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  • #31
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I think the full meaning of what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 6,19 is best understood as an application of an idea that he already introduced in 1 Cor 3,9.16-17. It is the same idea, applied to a specific type of sinfulness.
    One question: In 1 Cor 6:19, does τὸ σῶμα ὑμῶν mean that the individual bodies of those to whom Paul was writing were each individually a ναὸς, or is the term τὸ σῶμα ὑμῶν, in that context, an explicit reference to the corporate Temple of God?

    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I did not mean to imply that Morris implied this. If I thought that I would not have agreed with his comment. My rhetorical question was merely meant to express how his comment can be understood without abandoning the foundational idea that Paul introduces in 1 Cor 3,9.16-17.
    I do not know why you single out Morris, as I have never singled him out for comment to you. The only scholar I singled out is the exceptional Gordon Fee, whose commentary you ignored when you listed all the other commentators for your responses to their brief comments ― none of which, unlike Fee, provided extensive and exhaustive exegesis of 1 Cor 6:19.

    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I think that 1 Cor 3,9.16-17 helps us to understand 1 Cor 6,9-20 and does not impede our understanding.
    But does the former determine the specific meaning of τὸ σῶμα ὑμῶν in the latter?

    P.S.: see ETA here.
    Last edited by John Reece; 07-19-2014, 09:00 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by John Reece View Post
      One question: In 1 Cor 6:19, does τὸ σῶμα ὑμῶν mean that the individual bodies of those to whom Paul was writing were each individually a ναὸς, or is the term τὸ σῶμα ὑμῶν, in that context, an explicit reference to the corporate Temple of God?
      It is certainly not an explicit or exclusive reference to the corporate Temple of God. But I do think many English speakers, unlike Paul and his audience, are completely unaware of the corporate dimension of this metaphor that Paul introduced a few chapters earlier in 1 Cor 3,9.16-17 because we lack second person plural verbs and pronouns. When Paul takes up this same metaphor here, I do think he is building upon (actually applying, but I could not resist the pun) the earlier methaphor and doing so in a way that reveals an individual dimension. I do not think it is helpful for readers to only be aware of the individual dimension of Paul's metaphor, as so many English speakers unfortuantely are. Thus I think Littlejohn is doing a great job with his Sunday school class to teach them about the fullness of Paul's metaphors. Paul does not teach merely that our individual bodies, which are not our own, are individual temples of the Holy Spirit. If St Paul were teaching Littlejohn's Sunday school class, I think he would make sure that the students understood both dimensions.

      Originally posted by John Reece View Post
      I do not know why you single out Morris, as I have never singled him out for comment to you. The only scholar I singled out is the exceptional Gordon Fee, whose commentary you ignored when you listed all the other commentators for your responses to their brief comments ― none of which, unlike Fee, provided extensive and exhaustive exegesis of 1 Cor 6:19.
      I did not single out Morris. You quoted from Thiselton, Conzelmann, Bruce, Morris, Barrett, and Fee, and I agreed and commented upon all of their comments, except for one difficulty with Fee's use of a semiticism to explain Paul's language here--I think that can be explored further. The response I made to the comment of Morris was the one you just quoted and responded to, so, in responding to your response, I mentioned Morris again to make sure you did not misunderstand my comment regarding your quotatio of Morris. I have not yet read all of Fee's comments, but I intend to as time permits.

      Originally posted by John Reece View Post
      But does the former determine the specific meaning of τὸ σῶμα ὑμῶν in the latter?
      Determine? No. Enhance our understanding of Paul's use of this metaphor, absolutely.
      Last edited by robrecht; 07-14-2014, 11:24 AM.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        It is certainly not an explicit or exclusive reference to the corporate Temple of God. But I do think many English speakers, unlike Paul and his audience, are completely unaware of the corporate dimension of this metaphor that Paul introduced a few chapters earlier in 1 Cor 3,9.16-17 because we lack second person plural verbs and pronouns. When Paul takes up this same metaphor here, I do think he is building upon (actually applying, but I could not resist the pun) the earlier methaphor and doing so in a way that reveals an individual dimension. I do not think it is helpful for readers to only be aware of the individual dimension of Paul's metaphor, as so many English speakers unfortuantely are. Thus I think Littlejohn is doing a great job with his Sunday school class to teach them about the fullness of Paul's metaphors. Paul does not teach merely that our individual bodies, which are not our own, are individual temples of the Holy Spirit. If St Paul were teaching Littlejohn's Sunday school class, I think he would make sure that the students understood both dimensions.
        By ignoring the main part of my question, you continue to obfuscate the point I was trying to clarify.

        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        I did not single out Morris.
        See the middle exchange in this post

        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        You quoted from Thiselton, Conzelmann, Bruce, Morris, Barrett, and Fee, and I agreed and commented upon all of their comments,...
        I cannot find your comment on Fee's comment; perhaps you can locate that for me?

        P.S.: see ETA here.
        Last edited by John Reece; 07-19-2014, 09:24 PM.

        Comment


        • #34
          I am sure that robrecht's comments have been most helpful for Littlejoe in the teaching of his Sunday School class.

          My comments on the other hand have been oriented as though I were still participating in an exegetical course in a theological seminary 46 years ago, where I was trained to do the exact opposite of what robrecht has been doing in this thread* ― in the present case so helpfully for the benefit of Littlejoe and his Sunday School class.

          So, please pardon my intrusion into this thread and please excuse me from further participation in it.

          *A belated P.S.: see ETA here ― which illustrates what I was trained to do in the exegetical course in a theological seminary 46 years ago
          Last edited by John Reece; 07-19-2014, 09:08 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by John Reece View Post
            By ignoring the main part of my question, you continue to obfuscate the point I was trying to clarify.
            I am no trying to obfuscate, but my way of clarifying does differ from yours. You asked if A or B was correct. I said B was not correct so that leaves A, right? My clarification beyond that is merely that Paul's metaphor is best understood with both dimensions, both B, which is the metaphor as Paul first introduced it to this audience, and A, which introduces the added dimension that becomes apparent here in this context.

            Originally posted by John Reece View Post
            See the middle exchange in this post
            In Post #26, I responded to each of your quotations from Thiselton, Conzelmann, Bruce, Morris, and Barrett, not singling out Morris, but responding individually to each and every one of the quotes you had included in your post #5. I basically agreed with all of them but I did try to clarify how I agreed with some rhetorical questions. In Post #27, you took only what I said with respect to the Morris quote, and said that Fee did not imply that. So I clarified that my rhetorical question was not meant to imply that Morris implied an affirmative answer. My rhetorical question pertaining to the Morris quote was merely intended to show the limits of my agreement with Morris, which I believe Morris himself would be quick to accept as well. It was a rhetorical question to which I thought it would be understood that one would only answer in the negative.

            Originally posted by John Reece View Post
            I cannot find your comment on Fee's comment; perhaps you can locate that for me?
            Sure. Post #17.
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by John Reece View Post
              I am sure that robrecht's comments have been most helpful for Littlejoe in the teaching of his Sunday School class.

              My comments on the other hand have been oriented as though I were still participating in an exegetical course in a theological seminary 46 years ago, where I was trained to do the exact opposite of what robrecht has been doing in this thread ― in the present case so helpfully for the benefit of Littlejoe and his Sunday School class.

              So, please pardon my intrusion into this thread and please excuse me from further participation in it.
              Hi, John. I think your comments have been very helpful. I am sorry if I have not always been clear about the extent to which I have agreed with your comments. I'm not sure exactly what you were taught, but I do think good exegetical method should attempt to clarify the text in its many contexts. Looking at the different ways in which Paul introduces and later applies a metaphor is merely an attempt to understand the text of Chapter 6 in the context of the whole letter.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #37
                John and Robrecht, I have followed the discussion intimately and have really enjoyed the view points thoroughly! John, just so you know I highly value Gordon Fee as an exegete...(I'm Assemblies of God as is Dr. Fee) and do consider him one of the better exegetes...certainly in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles. In fact, I am teaching a series on Fee and Stuarts book "How to Read the Bible for All it's Worth". Obviously, I felt that these scriptures in 1 Corinthians could show how we miss the Community/Spiritual Family aspect of Paul's writing using our "modern day" western mentality. The lesson was to emphasize the basic principle of exegesis as they explain it, That we need to fully determine what the text meant to the original audience. I think it went very well using the helpful points you both made. So, thank you very much! I will be working on Hermeneutics the next two weeks and may have more questions! So again, Thank you both very much!!!
                Last edited by Littlejoe; 07-14-2014, 06:35 PM.
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  John and Robrecht, I have followed the discussion intimately and have really enjoyed the view points thoroughly! John, just so you know I highly value Gordon Fee as an exegete...(I'm Assemblies of God as is Dr. Fee) and do consider him one of the better exegetes...certainly in Charismatic/Pentecostal circles. In fact, I am teaching a series on Fee and Stuarts book "How to Read the Bible for All it's Worth". Obviously, I felt that these scriptures in 1 Corinthians could show how we miss the Community/Spiritual Family aspect of Paul's writing using our "modern day" western mentality. The lesson was to emphasize the basic principle of exegesis as they explain it, That we need to fully determine what the text meant to the original audience. I think it went very well using the helpful points you both made. So, thank you very much! I will be working on Hermeneutics the next two weeks and may have more questions! So again, Thank you both very much!!!
                  My pleasure, Littlejoe. I love teaching Sunday school. Not sure if you're teaching kids, or what age, but I have found kids to be by and large much more imaginative and open hearted in their approach to God than most adults. It does not surprise me that Jesus acknowledged God for having hidden things from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to kids.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    My pleasure, Littlejoe. I love teaching Sunday school. Not sure if you're teaching kids, or what age, but I have found kids to be by and large much more imaginative and open hearted in their approach to God than most adults. It does not surprise me that Jesus acknowledged God for having hidden things from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to kids.
                    I'm substitute teaching (for the month of July) one of our Adult classes. I too love teaching, but, I've been just substituting for the most part lately. Our class has a broad age spectrum, we have a couple of young (college age) "kids" and several retired or near retired folks. I'm not sure I have the patience for teaching kids. I work with Royal Rangers along with the leader and another guy, it takes 3 of us to keep a lid on them. LOL!
                    Last edited by Littlejoe; 07-15-2014, 11:23 PM.
                    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I have posted a series of ETA's throughout this thread.

                      In addition to afterthoughts since I withdrew from the discussion herein, I have taken further note of tabibito's contributions in post #10 and post 23, to the latter of which the following is robrecht's response.

                      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      I'm not contesting that we receive it individually, but I do think most Christians receive it through the mediation of others, be it through prayer, sacraments, the witness of others, or even the private reading of the Scriptures, which were written by others. St Paul had the witness of Stephen and others that he was persecuting. In this sense, I do not think that it is only received individually, but that it always has an impulse toward community and fellowship. I think we agree on the last part, but it sounds like you might have a more unique experience.
                      Although, by means of a thorough reading of all of Paul's comments about the Church as the Body of Christ and the Temple of God, I have a very solid conception and appreciation of those spiritual realities, and although personal experience is purely anecdotal and not likely to be typical, my case is more in line with tabibito's comments.

                      Given that my whole life has been radically atypical in almost every way, it's not out of character for me that my initial reception of the Holy Spirit was quite individualistic.

                      I had never heard of the Holy Spirit ― at least, not in any way that registered a trace in my memory ― when I was in the second year of a Baptist junior college, and happened to attend a weekday evening meeting in the college auditorium during which a freshman student told the assembled large group of students and a few faculty members his story of having been saved by God when he was in the Navy. Nothing about his story impressed me; however, when he had finished speaking, he asked every who felt called into "full time Christian service" to raise their hands. No such thought had ever entered my mind, so I did not respond to that. Then he said, something like, "If you really want to dedicate your life to God, please raise your hand." I raised my hand. Then he said (something like), "All who raised their hands please come forward."

                      My immediate experience was an overwhelming sense of self-consciousness: I was extremely self-conscious by nature and I was quite averse to standing up in from of all those people. However, within a split second, I was transformed by another quite surprising-to-me experience, which is difficult to describe; in fact, I do not think I could have described it to anyone at the time, because I lacked the spiritual vocabulary to do so. Anyhow, it was like every fiber of my being was not only immersed in but saturated with a sense of love, joy, peace, confidence, calmness, and spiritual awareness. It was as though I almost involuntarily stood up with zero self-consciousness and walked forward.

                      At the front of the room I found a line of people waiting to shake the hands of those who had come forth, and as I shook hands with those in that line, I had a very distinct impression with regard to each person. With some, I felt a sense that what had entered me was also in them so strongly that it was as though I could sense the reality thereof flowing through my hand and the hand of the person I was shaking hands with. On the other hand, there were some who when I shook their hands, I had a very distinct sense that what was in me was not in them, and that there was no flow thereof from person to person as I shook hands with them. With regard to the latter, when I looked into their eyes, I saw fear. Memorably, one such was the dean of the college.

                      From that day forward, I have had a sense of being led by God and of having my life ordered purposefully by God. And of God being with me and in me, even throughout life-wrecking tragedy, loss, and a long series of failures on my part.

                      I didn't mean to tell my life story, I just wanted to second tabibito's account of an individualistic reception of the Holy Spirit. No one on the occasion that I just related said anything about the Holy Spirit, no one prayed for me, no one talked to me or counseled me, no scripture was read to me, no one knew what had happened to me, and I did not mention it to anyone for years thereafter. And not until a year or two later, when I was at a different college, was I able to relate the reality of that experience with what the Scriptures say about the Holy Spirit, because I did not begin reading the Bible ― for the first time in my life ― until after I had transferred to the second college.
                      Last edited by John Reece; 07-20-2014, 03:57 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I thank you John Reece - that gives me a better appreciation of what is meant by the gift of the Holy Spirit to discern spirits.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                          I have posted a series of ETA's throughout this thread.

                          In addition to afterthoughts since I withdrew from the discussion herein, I have taken further note of tabibito's contributions in post #10 and post 23, to the latter of which the following is robrecht's response.

                          Although, by means of a thorough reading of all of Paul's comments about the Church as the Body of Christ and the Temple of God, I have a very solid conception and appreciation of those spiritual realities, and although personal experience is purely anecdotal and not likely to be typical, my case is more in line with tabibito's comments.

                          Given that my whole life has been radically atypical in almost every way, it's not out of character for me that my initial reception of the Holy Spirit was quite individualistic.

                          I had never heard of the Holy Spirit ― at least, not in any way that registered a trace in my memory ― when I was in the second year of a Baptist junior college, and happened to attend a weekday evening meeting in the college auditorium during which a freshman student told the assembled large group of students and a few faculty members his story of having been saved by God when he was in the Navy. Nothing about his story impressed me; however, when he had finished speaking, he asked every who felt called into "full time Christian service" to raise their hands. No such thought had ever entered my mind, so I did not respond to that. Then he said, something like, "If you really want to dedicate your life to God, please raise your hand." I raised my hand. Then he said (something like), "All who raised their hands please come forward."

                          My immediate experience was an overwhelming sense of self-consciousness: I was extremely self-conscious by nature and I was quite averse to standing up in from of all those people. However, within a split second, I was transformed by another quite surprising-to-me experience, which is difficult to describe; in fact, I do not think I could have described it to anyone at the time, because I lacked the spiritual vocabulary to do so. Anyhow, it was like every fiber of my being was not only immersed in but saturated with a sense of love, joy, peace, confidence, calmness, and spiritual awareness. It was as though I almost involuntarily stood up with zero self-consciousness and walked forward.

                          At the front of the room I found a line of people waiting to shake the hands of those who had come forth, and as I shook hands with those in that line, I had a very distinct impression with regard to each person. With some, I felt a sense that what had entered me was also in them so strongly that it was as though I could sense the reality thereof flowing through my hand and the hand of the person I was shaking hands with. On the other hand, there were some who when I shook their hands, I had a very distinct sense that what was in me was not in them, and that there was no flow thereof from person to person as I shook hands with them. With regard to the latter, when I looked into their eyes, I saw fear. Memorably, one such was the dean of the college.

                          From that day forward, I have had a sense of being led by God and of having my life ordered purposefully by God. And of God being with me and in me, even throughout life-wrecking tragedy, loss, and a long series of failures on my part.

                          I didn't mean to tell my life story, I just wanted to second tabibito's account of an individualistic reception of the Holy Spirit. No one on the occasion that I just related said anything about the Holy Spirit, no one prayed for me, no one talked to me or counseled me, no scripture was read to me, no one knew what had happened to me, and I did not mention it to anyone for years thereafter. And not until a year or two later, when I was at a different college, was I able to relate the reality of that experience with what the Scriptures say about the Holy Spirit, because I did not begin reading the Bible ― for the first time in my life ― until after I had transferred to the second college.
                          This is the second time I have been privileged to hear your story, John. Thank you. Don't you think some of the other people in that auditorium were praying for you and witnessing to you? Certainly you had already been reading the scriptures, which were written by others.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            This is the second time I have been privileged to hear your story, John. Thank you. Don't you think some of the other people in that auditorium were praying for you and witnessing to you? Certainly you had already been reading the scriptures, which were written by others.
                            Apparently, although you note that this is the second time you have read my testimony, you did not read very carefully this time, or you simply do not remember what you read: I had never ever read scripture ― indeed, had never owned a Bible ― until a year or two after the occasion and experience that I told about in my post, to which you are now responding.

                            As regards "some of the other people in that auditorium were praying for you and witnessing to you", I had slipped into that auditorium that night quite alone and late for the meeting. I sat down unobtrusively on the back row after the college freshman/ex navy man had already begun his testimony. He never spoke directly to me; no one had even noticed me so as to make me an object of prayer, so far as I could tell. No one ― not a single soul ― ever said a single word to me that evening. After it was over, I slipped out alone, just as I had entered, with nary a murmur spoken to me personally by anyone. I did not see a friend or acquaintance while I was there, except for the athletic coach for whom I worked as a custodian in his gym. If he was a Christian given to prayer, it was a well-kept secret never divulged to me. I recognized the dean of the college because he was the dean of the college; however, if you re-read my testimony, it will be clear to you that he could not have been one who was praying for me; and as I have said repeatedly, no one witnessed to me personally. I was just a stranger in a crowd, with no one exchanging a personal word with me. The only witness to me that night ― however not personally ― was the ex navy guy/freshman who was the speaker for the evening, who did not know me, nor I him, and who never spoke to me before, during, or after that meeting.

                            I am not glorying in such isolation, nor am I proud of it: it is just exactly what happened.

                            Knowing what I have learned and experienced since that time, with regard to the power of intercessory prayer and public witness as channels of the power of the Holy Spirit, I do not doubt that there was a lot of prayer devoted to and supporting the speaker and praying for an effect on the audience; perhaps, someone may have noticed me and prayed for me on that occasion ― without my being aware of it; I cannot deny the possibility, or the probability; however, no evidence thereof was made known to me on that occasion.

                            Bottom line: I was not influenced by either scripture or personal testimony regarding the Holy Spirit, which/who was not mentioned by the public speaker or anyone else on the evening about which I have testified.
                            Last edited by John Reece; 07-21-2014, 07:14 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                              Apparently, although you note that this is the second time you have read my testimony, you did not read very carefully this time, or you simply do not remember what you read: I had never ever read scripture ― indeed, had never owned a Bible ― until a year or two after the occasion and experience that I told about in my post, to which you are now responding.

                              As regards "some of the other people in that auditorium were praying for you and witnessing to you", I had slipped into that auditorium that night quite alone and late for the meeting. I sat down unobtrusively on the back row after the college freshman/ex navy man had already begun his testimony. He never spoke directly to me; no one had even noticed me so as to make me an object of prayer, so far as I could tell. No one ― not a single soul ― ever said a single word to me that evening. After it was over, I slipped out alone, just as I had entered, with nary a murmur spoken to me personally by anyone. I did not see a friend or acquaintance while I was there, except for the athletic coach for whom I worked as a custodian in his gym. If he was a Christian given to prayer, it was a well-kept secret never divulged to me. I recognized the dean of the college because he was the dean of the college; however, if you re-read my testimony, it will be clear to you that he could not have been one who was praying for me; and as I have said repeatedly, no one witnessed to me personally. I was just a stranger in a crowd, with no one exchanging a personal word with me. The only witness to me that night ― however not personally ― was the ex navy guy/freshman who was the speaker for the evening, who did not know me, nor I him, and who never spoke to me before, during, or after that meeting.

                              I am not glorying in such isolation, nor am I proud of it: it is just exactly what happened.

                              Knowing what I have learned and experienced since that time, with regard to the power of intercessory prayer and public witness as channels of the power of the Holy Spirit, I do not doubt that there was a lot of prayer devoted to and supporting the speaker and praying for an effect on the audience; perhaps, someone may have noticed me and prayed for me on that occasion ― without my being aware of it; I cannot deny the possibility, or the probability; however, no evidence thereof was made known to me on that occasion.

                              Bottom line: I was not influenced by either scripture or personal testimony regarding the Holy Spirit, which/who was not mentioned by the public speaker or anyone else on the evening about which I have testified.
                              Yes, I must have missed the part about your having never ever read (or heard?) the scriptures. Sorry. I was not speaking of individuals praying specifically for you or people speaking directly to you, other than your being a member of the larger group that was being addressed.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                Yes, I must have missed the part about your having never ever read (or heard?) the scriptures. Sorry. I was not speaking of individuals praying specifically for you or people speaking directly to you, other than your being a member of the larger group that was being addressed.
                                Yes, I heard the scriptures read in chapel services, but I had zero memory of any reference to receiving the Holy Spirit in the scriptures that I had heard read in chapel or church services.

                                The larger group that was being addressed was not being addressed with regard to the Holy Spirit nor with regard to receiving the Holy Spirit.

                                The subject I was addressing, in response to tabibito's comments, was receiving the Holy Spirit, which I had never heard about in any way that had left any trace in my memory, and which I did not hear about during the evening meeting I have told about. In effect, the speaker of the evening simply told about being "saved" while he was in the Navy ― without any mention of an experience of the Holy Spirit. The invitation to which I responded was nothing like "If you wish to receive the Holy Spirit, raise your hand." Rather, the invitation was "If you wish to dedicate your life to God, raise your hand."

                                My receiving the Holy Spirit was an experience that I could only describe as a combination of both being immersed in and filled with the Holy Spirit; it was a phenomenon that to me theretofore was completely unheard of; at the time, I could not have understood or thought of the phenomenon in such terms as I now do, because I was totally ignorant of the biblical vocabulary and teaching with regard to the Holy Spirit; my mind was completely uninformed with regard to the subject.

                                I did not begin to learn anything about the Holy Spirit until I bought a copy of the RSV New Testament and began to read it a year or two later.
                                Last edited by John Reece; 07-21-2014, 10:40 AM.

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