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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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Our Translated Gospels

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  • #46
    Continued from last post above ↑

    Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
    Even more like the picture in Habakkuk is that in Ps. 2, where the nations and the kings of the earth set themselves "against Yahweh and his Anointed," who is promised the power to "break them with a rod of iron, dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel"; words repeated as uttered to the Messiah, the Son of David, in Ps. So., 17:26. In verses 6-8 of this second psalm, the coming King, the Son of God, is also given the promise:
    Ask of me, and I will give you the nations as your portion,
    The uttermost parts of the earth as your possession;

    a saying paraphrased from Is. 55:4 f., where the prophet represents Yahweh as making allusion to the promise to David, and then as saying to the coming King: "Behold, I make you* . . . the leader and commander of the peoples; you shall call nations that you know not," etc.

    There are in the Psalter numerous passages of this nature, certainly conceived as definitely Messianic, which are so casual or cryptic as to leave us in uncertainty, in our inability to follow the imagination of the writer. The Messianic doctrine was so ancient, so firmly established, with its various formulae and its evasive allusions so universally understood, that there was no need of elaboration or explanation. There is here no space for discussing further examples.
    *As I attempted to show in The Second Isaiah, the suffixed pronoun must originally have been second person; the direct address should begin in verse 4, not in the following verse.

    To be continued...

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    • #47
      Continued from last post above ↑

      Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
      The "King" in the Psalter, if not Yahweh himself, is always either David or the Messiah; the view of Driver and of many other scholars. At the time when these hymns were first sung in the temple there was no king on the throne in Jerusalem, nor any prospect of a restored kingdom. See I Chron. 16:34, 41; 2 Chron. 5:13; 7:6; Ezra 3:11; from the middle of the third century B.C. We do not happen to have any clear evidence as to the time when the Psalter was translated into Greek. It is not easy to believe that this could have waited until after the second century B.C. If the Hebrew psalmists are permitted the vivid imagination of oriental poets, and fervent religious feeling, there is no room for supposing Maccabean psalms.

      One outstanding feature of the Messianic expectation, the hope of the Gentiles, has not thus far been touched upon, and must now be briefly considered. The share of the nations in the blessings of the Coming Age, the result of their conversion to the true faith, is dwelt upon in all the earliest Christian records. The words attributed to Jesus in Matthew 24:14; 28:19; and Luke 24:47 declare the necessity of evangelizing all the foreign peoples; and in the last-named passage this is said to be the teaching of the Hebrew scriptures. Indeed, there is constant reference to O.T. prophecy. Jesus quotes Is. 56:7 in Mark 11:17, and 56:8 in John 10:16; both passages foretelling the ingathering of the nations. Lk. 2:32 (in the Hebrew document) cites as Messianic the striking phrase of Is. 42:6, repeated in 49:6, "Light of the Gentiles"; and Paul also quotes the passage in Acts 13:47. There was at no time any thought of a gospel for the Jews only. Paul's new light on the matter concerned procedure only, as he himself says in Rom. 11:25 ff. (quoting Is. 59:20 f.!); and the need of the new procedure was seen at once, and acted upon, by all the leaders of the church. It could not have been long postponed.

      To be continued...
      Last edited by John Reece; 05-14-2014, 08:03 AM.

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      • #48
        Continued from last post above ↑

        Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
        The teaching as to the Gentiles is wide-hearted in all Hebrew-Jewish Messianic literature, though the fact is frequently ignored, or denied. It is not uncommon to see the Jewish doctrine of the first century―or indeed, of the whole post-Maccabean time―stated as though it looked for the ultimate extinction of the foreign peoples. R. H. Charles, in his Translation of Enoch, commenting on a passage which seems to include foreigners in the general resurrection, remarks (p. 139, footnote): "The whole history of Jewish thought points in an opposite direction" (!); and in a note on 48:4 (which quotes Is. 42:6): "The Messiah will become the light of the Gentiles though his future coming and character being made known unto them"―the light which a man sees as his house burns down. In fact, the Book of Enoch promises "salvation" to both Jews and Gentiles; see for example 50:2-4; 90:30. The Psalms of Solomon do the same; see 17:4 (quoting Is 42:3 f.), 35 f. (!), 38b; and also again like Enoch, declare that the Messiah will punish Jews and Gentiles alike; see 17:26, 47. The fateful line which is drawn is between the adherents of the true faith and the wicked, of whatever nation. The substance of the faith is given with sufficient clearness in Enoch 48:5: "All who dwell on earth will fall down and bow the knee before him (the Messiah) and will bless . . . the Lord of Spirits."

        To be continued...
        Last edited by John Reece; 05-16-2014, 09:13 AM.

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        • #49
          Continued from last post above ↑

          Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
          As in Enoch and Psalms of Solomon, so in all the pre-Christian Jewish literature, the hope for the nations is clearly stated, as a matter of course needing no explanation or comment. It is unnecessary to quote passages. See, for illustration, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs; Levi, 4:4; 18:19; Judah, 22:2; 24:6; Zebulun, 9:8; Dan, 6:7; Asher, 7:3; 9:2; 10:5, 10. Also Sibylline Oracles III, 710-723. 767 f.

          The Psalter, the great hymnal of the Jewish people, widely familiar for many generations before the beginning of the present era, is full of the universal promise, the voice of the multitude. See, as a few examples, 65:3 [English 65:2]; 67:4-6 [English 67:3-5]; 72:17; 76:10 [English 76:9] ("all the humble of the earth"); 86:9; 145:14-21. The picture of the glorious future drawn by psalmists and prophets (Zech. 9:10, in a Messianic picture, is typical) is always religious rather than political. Up to the time when the Gospels were written, there was no Messianic hope which did not include the mission of the Gentiles and their conversion in multitude; it was an essential feature of the great program.

          To be continued...

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          • #50
            Continued from last post above ↑

            Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
            A very noticeable feature, in all this Messianic prediction, is the constant reference to the great prophecy, Is. 34―36. Many examples have been given in the preceding pages, and others could be added. In the Gospels and I Acts, especially, at the very points where authentication of the Messiahship is chiefly sought and needed, this particular scripture is in the foreground. In the narrative of the baptism, the voice from heaven declares Jesus not only the Son, but also the Servant; the phrase, "my beloved, in whom I delight," being taken from Isaiah 42:1. Again, at the transfiguration, the voice is heard, and this time Lk. (9:35) instead of "beloved" has the more exact rendering, "the Elect One" (a favorite title in the Book of Enoch). The added words, hear ye him," seem reminiscent of Is. 50:10, "Who is there among you who fears Yahweh? Hear* the voice of his Servant!"
            *Pointing the verb as imperative, as it was actually read by the LXX, decidedly improves the passage.


            To be continued...

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            • #51
              Continued from last post above ↑

              Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
              When the direct question is put to Jesus (Mt. 11:5, Lk. 7:22), "Are you the One predicted?" the answer is from Is. 61:1 ff. That is, the personage "anointed of Yahweh" (verse 1) was by the Jewish people of that day understood to be the promised Son of David. This appears even more clearly, if possible, in Luke 4:17-21, where Jesus says to the men of Nazareth, "Today the scripture which you have just heard is fulfilled!" The conclusion carries with it Is. 42:2 f., 7 and 49:8 f., for it is quite beyond question that in these passages the same coming Benefactor is described. In Acts 3:13, 26; 4:27, 30 Jesus is identified with the Servant, and especially the suffering Servant. Peter says to the people, (3:26) that the great work is to be effective "in turning away every one of you from your sins." This refers directly to Is. 50 and 53; and the latter chapter is quoted to the same effect in Acts 8:32. "The Just One" of Acts 3:14 and 7:52 is a title derived from Is 53:11. The "new covenant," to which Jesus refers in Mk. 14:24 and parallels, goes back through Zech 9:11 (in the Messianic passage) to Is. 55:3 ff., repeated in 61:8 f. It is the new covenant with the Son of David, announcing that through the sacrifice of the Servant the whole world―not simply Israel―is to be saved.

              To be continued...

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              • #52
                Continued from last post above ↑

                Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                Certain it is, that all the Hebrew-Jewish writers who deal with specifically Messianic doctrine, from the Gospels, I Acts, and Paul back through the post-canonical literature, the Psalter, the Prophets (Zech. 9:9, Hab. 3:13, Mal. 1:11; 3:1, Jer. 23:5, etc.), to Is., chapters 9 and 11, look to Second Isaiah as the fountain head. The fact is more significant, I believe, than has been suspected. There was a definite time when a new picture of the future was drawn for Israel, a mighty portrayal which profoundly influenced all the subsequent literature, and was accepted by the people. Its central feature is the triumph and beneficent reign of a superhuman king, whose kindly authority is to be world-wide. Here for the first time the national hope was given a definite religious content, universal application, and enduring literary form. By the beginning of the first century of the common era the tradition of this new revelation was centuries old, but not too old to have been preserved.

                To be continued...

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                • #53
                  Continued from last post above ↑

                  Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                  §2. The Program of Second Isaiah

                  The outstanding feature of this great masterpiece of religious philosophy is a figure of speech, well known, but not always well understood. The profound conception of the "Servant" as the index of the nation is worthy of this greatest of the Hebrew prophets. It is the key to the understanding of the whole prophecy, underlying each of the successive features of a fully developed plan. The prophet sees human history as a unit, from the creation of the world to the day of the Messiah, and the center is Palestine. His thought is always primarily of his people; but Israel's representative (whether past or future) is always kept in sight, and the traits of the one are those of the other. His conception requires the use of the term "servant" in more than one connotation, and the differing applications of the figure must shade off into one another. Even where the person of the Davidic King (his great creation) is most distinctly portrayed, the picture soon returns―and must return―to the nation. The individual, the Coming One, stands clearly before us in 42:1 ff., in 49:1-6, in 55:3-5, and in 61:1; but the picture dissolves.


                  To be continued...

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                  • #54
                    Continued from last post above ↑

                    Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                    In 41:8 ff., 14-16 the representative is named Jacob; he who at length will "shatter mountains, make hills as chaff"; the passage elaborated by Habakkuk in his picture of the Messianic triumph. In the same chapter we are given sudden glimpses of another champion, 41:2 f., 25; this time not named, though we can recognize him with certainty. It is (as the Targum recognizes) an idealized Abraham, the king who fought and conquered the great kings of the earth, projected from Gen. 14 into the dawn of the Messianic age. No other champion ever came "from the east" (Ur of the Chaldees) and "from the north" (Harran), "calling on Yahweh's name." He appears again in 46:11. But these patriarchs are only shadows of a far greater figure.

                    To be continued...

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                    • #55
                      Continued from last post above ↑

                      Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                      On the other hand, the mighty warrior (41:2 f., 45:1 f.), the teacher (50:4, the Davidic king (55:3 ff.), the universal benefactor (61:1-3), is in each case and in a very true sense Israel personified, the embodiment of the nation at its best. Here the prophet saw more deeply than any of his predecessors. The meekness of the ruler, pictured in 42:2, is the counterpart of what is said of the nation in 50:4-9. The shattering, all-conquering might of Israel led by Yahweh (41:15 f.) is that of the Anointed One, similarly led, in 45:1 f. There is gain of hidden riches (45:3) or division of the spoil for the strong (53:12). "I call thee by name" (a highly significant phrase!) is said to one representative of the nation (Jacob) in 43:1, to another (the coming King) in 45:3 f., and again to the same personage (the Servant, not yet manifested) in 49:1.

                      To be continued...

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                      • #56
                        Continued from last post above ↑

                        Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                        Nevertheless, the nation is not identical with its predetermined divine-human leader, and in two passages the prophet puts aside his characteristic symbolization to the extent of making a clear distinction. The title which is applied expressly, and in very different language, to the people of Israel in 41:8; 43:10; 44:1 f., 21; and even in 49:3, is employed in 49:5 f. to designate him who is ordained of Yahweh "to bring back to him Jacob, and to gather for him Israel." And in 45:4 f. the same mighty personage is called, and given his new "surname," Anointed: "for the sake of Jacob my servant and Israel my chosen."

                        To be continued...

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                        • #57
                          Continued from last post above ↑

                          Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                          Here, as might have been expected, is the origin of the standing title "Messiah" applied to the central figure of the Hebrew national hope; it is given to him again in 61:1. Moreover, in the poems of this writer (who wrote, according to good evidence, at about the year 400 B.C.) there was set before the eyes of Israel a picture of a King, and of the dawn of his day, which remained essentially the same for all future time. Yet the prophet's new application of the term, and the significance of his whole prophecy were taken away from him (for modern readers) after having been in circulation for a century and a half. The magnificent creation, the Magna Charta of the world's redemption, a perfect literary unit from chapter 34 to chapter 66 (omitting of course, chapters 36-39), is reduced to incomprehensible fragments by the absurd interpolation of Cyrus in 44:28 and 45:1, accompanied by a few supporting insertions.* It is strange that this very obvious work of editing, which has wrought unexampled mischief in the O.T. and still more in the Gospels, should be generally unrecognized at this present day, when so many similar interpretative insertions in Hebrew prophecy are well known. The reason for the interpolations in Second Isaiah is obvious and fully sufficient, namely, keen interest in the Chronicler's narration contained in the book of Ezra.
                          *These excrescences were demonstrated as such in The Second Isaiah, chapter III.

                          To be continued...

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                            The prophet's program for Israel is clear and consistent throughout. First, recognition of the present unworthiness. There can be no triumph, no kingdom as yet, for the people are not ready. Second Isaiah is emphatic on this point. Israel neither knows God nor comprehends his purpose (40:27 f.). "Thou hast not called upon me, Jacob, thou hast been weary of me, Israel. . . . Thou hast burdened me with thy sins, wearied me with thine iniquities" (43:22 ff.). "It is not in truth, nor by right, that they . . . stay themselves upon the God of Israel" (48:1 f.). "Thou hearest not, thou knewest not; from of old thine ear was not opened" (48:8). See also 50:1 f., 11, and the more definite accusations in chapters 57 ff. and 65 f. As the prophet continues with his splendid predictions, he feels more and more strongly, and sets forth more and more sharply, the distressing outlook of his own day.

                            To be continued...

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Continued from last post above ↑

                              Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                              A corresponding contrast appears, of necessity, in the picture of the Leader who is held in waiting. In 42:1 ff. he is a most impressive figure, the ruler and judge of the world, seen in the indefinite future; in verses 19 f. we are brought back to the present: "Who is blind, but my Servant? or deaf, as my Messenger* whom I send? The people are discouraged, 40:27; 50:1; 58:3; 64:7, etc.; the future "restorer of Israel" cries (49:4): "I have labored for naught!" and he is shown how much he has to learn. In chapter 45, just after the promise of future triumph over every world power, Yahweh says to his Messiah (verse 4): "I have called thee by thy name; I have surnamed thee [by the title "Anointed"], though thou hast not known me."
                              *From this passage, and from 44:26, Mal. 3:1 derived the title "Messenger of the Covenant," employed of the Messiah (see above).

                              To be continued...

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Continued from last post above ↑

                                Continuation of excerpts from the Introduction to Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                                Second, there must be suffering, and the reason for it must be understood. It is an essential feature of the divine plan; chapters 50 and 53. Vicarious atonement is taught here as plainly as any words could teach it, and the fact was recognized by all in that day and in the following generations. It is the people of Israel who suffer, but the portrayal is in terms of their representative. It was open to any interpreter to see even the death of the sacrificial victim declared, and this in fact became the customary interpretation,* though it was not the meaning intended by the prophet [? -JR]. When the Servant shall have completed his sacrifice, shall have "poured out his life to the utmost" (literally "unto death"), verse 12, this will mean that the saints and thinkers of Israel have accepted for themselves the great sacrifice.
                                *Hence the doctrine, surviving in the Rabbinic writings, of the other Messiah, not the son of David, but the son of Ephraim, who suffered and died. It is interesting to conjecture how a Targum of Isaiah 53 would have looked in the earlier part of the first century. The present Targum is a curious and ingeniously twisted specimen of exegesis, designed to remove completely from sight the interpretation accepted by Christians, who had made great capital of the chapter.


                                To be continued...
                                Last edited by John Reece; 05-27-2014, 07:11 AM.

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