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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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Our Translated Gospels

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  • Continued from the last post above ↑

    Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
    Mark 6:47: When evening came, [and] the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on the land.

    To be continued...

    Comment


    • Continued from the last post above ↑

      Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
      Matthew 9:18: While he was speaking with them, [and] behold, a certain ruler of their synagogue came, etc.

      To be continued...

      Comment


      • Continued from the last post above ↑

        Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
        Luke 20:1: And it happened on a certain day, while he was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, [and] there confronted him the chief priests and the scribes and the elders, etc.

        To be continued...

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        • Continued from the last post above ↑

          Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
          John 2:23: And while he was in Jerusalem, in the days of the feast of unleavened bread, [and] many believed on our Lord, because they saw the signs which he did for them.

          To be continued...

          Comment


          • Continued from the last post above ↑

            Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
            The foregoing are typical specimens. Other examples are Matthew 3:16; 12:9 and 46 (these two now in Curetonian only); 18:12; 24:1; Mark 4:6; 10:46; 11:15; Luke 2:44; 5:17 f.; 9:58; 11:8; 13:10 ff.; 14:1 f. 17:12; 18:4 f. 19:1 f.; 19:36; John 4:1-5 (twice); 6:19. John 16:6, listed by Burkitt, is hardly to be included, for the text of the first clause appears to be conflate, deriving its necessary gēr from the Peshitta.

            To be continued...

            Comment


            • Continued from the last post above ↑

              Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
              The treatment of the redundant "and" by the Curetonian Syriac revision is interesting and significant. In general, the purpose to expunge the barbarism is quite evident. Curetonian actually has the conjunction in six passages: Matthew 2:1 (translated above); 3:16; 12:9, 46; Luke 12 45 f. (translated above); 13:10 f. The four Matthew passages are all examples of the phrase "and behold," mentioned above. Each of the two passages in Luke is in a succession of four or five clauses, each introduced by "and"; and it is evident that the ambiguity, as to the place of beginning the conclusion, was allowed to stand. Professor Burkitt was clearly mistaken (p. 70) in supposing that Curetonian had the redundant conjunction in John 4:1 ff. Closer examination of the surviving fragments of the text, and the comparison of the Peshitta, show that the construction of the sentence in Curetonian is different from that in Old Syriac ("Sinaitic)), and that the offending idiom has been corrected. Also, in the last clauses of the long interpolation in Curetonian following Matthew 20:28, where Burkitt (pp. 71 f.) believed Curetonian to be actually producing its own example of the idioms, the fact appears rather to be, that a copyist of the text repeated mechanically the five words in succession which appear in the corresponding sentence above.

              To be continued...

              Comment


              • Continued from the last post above ↑

                Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                In all the remaining passages, twelve in number, which are preserved in both editions of the Old Syriac, the superfluous wa [and] of Sinaitic Syriac has been corrected out of the text of Curetonian; and this fact shows plainly enough, how distasteful this un-Syriac usage was to the Curetonian revisers.

                To be continued...

                Comment


                • Continued from the last post above ↑

                  Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                  The number of occurrences of this quasi-Hebrew employment of the conjunction is very remarkable, and is unexampled elsewhere. It appears to testify to a Christian literary idiom of Palestinian Aramaic, covering only a brief period of time. Other facts, as will be seen, point in the same direction. If this is the true explanation, it is natural and most probable to suppose that we have here a genuine survival, as opposed to anything artificial. In the peculiar Syriac which has just been discussed, and equally in the translation Greek of the Four Gospels, the influence of O.T. Hebrew is everywhere obvious. We see the frequent employment of such idioms as the absolute infinitive; "he answered and said"; "and it came to pass" (the use of this circumlocution considerably expanded by Luke, for some stylistic reason); "he spoke (or answered), saying"; the employment of nefesh as a substitute for the reflexive pronoun; the use of "Lord" in place of "God"; the superfluous word "man" prefixed or affixed, in apposition to a noun signifying occupation, a title, or the like (Mt. 13:28; 18:23; 20:1; 21:33; 22:2, etc.); and still others, aside from the incessant use of "and" at the beginning of chapters, paragraphs, and sentences.

                  To be continued...

                  Comment


                  • Continued from the last post above ↑

                    Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                    All this may well represent the usage of a single religious community. It is to be borne in mind that the Christians of that time and land had urgent reason to preserve in their own Messianic writings whatever striking literary properties of the sacred scriptures could be retained. They saw two successive stages of a divine program, and would bridge the gap between them in every possible way. The Jews of the same period, on the contrary, in all their writings whether Aramaic or Hebrew, studiously avoided the use of the above-mentioned and similar idioms, making the gap as wide as possible between the divine oracles and all later writings. The contrast is by no means accidental, and its significance needs no emphasis.

                    To be continued...

                    Comment


                    • Continued from the last post above ↑

                      Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                      The remarkable use of "and" here described is thus characteristic of a single dialect of Palestinian Aramaic, known only in the earliest Christian scriptures. Its chief illustration is seen in the peculiar version of the Tetraevangelium made by Palestinian Christians in the neighborhood of Antioch, and equally in the translation Greek of our Four Gospels. Since in Greek the redundant use of this conjunction, in any such frequency, is unidiomatic and unpleasing, the translators of the Gospels from the original Aramaic would be likely to omit it where it is evidently unnecessary. Numerous examples of it remain, nevertheless, especially in passages where a succession of "and-" clauses can create ambiguity as to the logical connection.

                      To be continued...

                      Comment


                      • Exhibit XIII, A (Mark 16:2-4) The Redundant "and."

                        Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                        Exhibit XIII, A (Mark 16:2-4). And very early on the first day of the week they came to the tomb. When the sun had risen, and they were saying among themselves, Who will roll for us the stone from the entrance of the tomb? [and] they looked, and saw that the stone was rolled back; and it was very great.

                        Mark 16:2-4. Both Matthew and Luke declare that the women came to the tomb of Jesus while it was yet dark; and this is the time they would naturally have chosen for their arrival. Mark, on the contrary, is made by our Greek to say that they came very early in the morning, after the sun had risen! That which caused this utterly absurd saying was the presence of the redundant "and," which the Greek translator failed to recognize. The place of beginning the conclusion of the sentence is formally ambiguous, it might be either verse 3 or verse 4; but the latter place, with its starting announcement, is the one which received the emphasis.

                        To be continued...
                        Last edited by John Reece; 10-28-2014, 10:16 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Exhibit XIII, B (Matthew 3:16) The Redundant "and."

                          Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                          Exhibit XIII, B (Matthew 3:16). When Jesus had been baptized, as soon as he went up from the water, [and] behold, the heavens were opened, etc.

                          Matthew 3:16. It is needless to dwell on the difficulty which commentators have had with this verse. The important fact is of course not that Jesus went up "immediately" from the water, but that the heavens were opened. The two (differing) Old Syriac versions, each with its superfluous conjunction, show why the Greek translator made a false division of clauses.

                          To be continued...

                          Comment


                          • Exhibit XIII, C (Luke 7:12) The Redundant "and."

                            Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                            Exhibit XIII, C (Luke 7:12). When he drew near to the gate of the city, [and] behold, they were bringing out a dead man.

                            Another good example of this idiomatic "and behold" in Luke's translation Greek is to be seen in Acts 1:10: "And as they went looking up into heaven as he went, [and] behold, two men stood by them.

                            To be continued...

                            Comment


                            • Exhibit XIII, D (Luke 13:25) The Redundant "and."

                              Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                              Exhibit XIII, D (Luke 13:25). After the master of the house has risen and made the door fast, [and] you will stand outside and knock on the door, saying, Master, open to us! and he will answer you, I know not whence you are.

                              Luke 13:25. Here also, as in Mark 16:2 ff., there is ambiguity as to the place of beginning the conclusion.

                              To be continued...

                              Comment


                              • Exhibit XIII, E (Jn. 1:19 f.) The Redundant "and."

                                Continuation of Chapter III titled 'The Redundant "And"' in Our Translated Gospels: Some of the Evidence, by Charles Cutler Torrey:
                                Exhibit XIII, E (John 1:19 f.). This also is the witness of John. When the Jews sent to him from Jerusalem priests and Levites to ask him, Who are you? [and] he replied openly; not withholding the truth, but declaring, I am not the Messiah.

                                John 1:19 f. This whole passage is very awkward in the Greek translation. The fundamental difficulty, however, lies in the "and at the beginning of verse 20, which can be cancelled only in defiance of "the entire textual tradition" (Zahn, Komm., p. 108).

                                To be continued...
                                Last edited by John Reece; 10-28-2014, 10:08 AM.

                                Comment

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