Originally posted by Sparko
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This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.
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John 20:28, My Lord and My God
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I don’t think Sparko realizes just how unbiblical his reasoning is. He says that if a general sends a soldier to save someone it is the soldier who has really saved. In the non-biblical context this is true, but within the biblical context this is not the case, assuming the general is God.
So in Judges 3 God raised a great soldier, judge and saviour named Othniel the son of Knaz, a champion of the children of Israel. The spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he went out to war and he defeated Cushan-rishathaim the king of Aram thereby providing safety for the children of Israel.
Yet to say that it was Othniel who really defeated the pagan king and saved Israel is wrong. Why ? Because Othniel defeated the king of Aram with the power of God, it was God who had empowered him with his own Spirit. So God, not Othniel is the “ultimate” or “only” Saviour.Last edited by Unitarian101; 01-11-2020, 12:10 AM.
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I feel sorry for Christians who claim without strong biblical support that Jesus was God in nature.
God in the Bible has certain attributes that only fit Him. For example, God knows everything according to 1 John 3:20. But Jesus said in Matthew 24:36 "no one knows of that day or that hour not angels in heaven nor the Son BUT ONLY THE FATHER" and therefore, it is "ONLY THE FATHER" that knows that hour according to Jesus.
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Originally posted by Unitarian101 View PostI don’t think Sparko realizes just how unbiblical his reasoning is. He says that if a general sends a soldier to save someone it is the soldier who has really saved. In the non-biblical context this is true, but within the biblical context this is not the case, assuming the general is God.
So in Judges 3 God raised a great soldier, judge and saviour named Othniel the son of Knaz, a champion of the children of Israel. The spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he went out to war and he defeated Cushan-rishathaim the king of Aram thereby providing safety for the children of Israel.
Yet to say that it was Othniel who really defeated the pagan king and saved Israel is wrong. Why ? Because Othniel defeated the king of Aram with the power of God, it was God who had empowered him with his own Spirit. So God, not Othniel is the “ultimate” or “only” Saviour.
So by your reasoning, if Othniel was called the Savior it would be a lie because God was the only savior?
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Moses is (called) the savior of Israel
Rashi on Exodus 1:22,
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true
On the day Moses was born, his astrologers told him [Pharaoh], Today the one who will save them has been born, but we do not know whether from the Egyptians or from the Israelites, but we see that he will ultimately be smitten through water. Therefore, on that day he issued a decree also upon the Egyptians, as it is said: Every son who is born, and it does not say: who is born to the Hebrews. They did not know, however, that he [Moses] would ultimately suffer because of the water of Meribah (Num. 20:7-13) [i.e., that he would not be permitted to enter the Holy Land].
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Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View PostMoses is (called) the savior of Israel
Rashi on Exodus 1:22,
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true
he saved them from Egyptian slavery by making known to them the name of the one he met at the burning bush
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
https://twitter.com/Minkmaat/status/989778752543641600
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Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View PostMoses is (called) the savior of Israel
Rashi on Exodus 1:22,
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true
he saved them from Egyptian slavery by making known to them the name of the one he met at the burning bush
the one who met him ...
Exodus 3:2,
and there appeared to him the angel of the Lord in a flame of fire from the midst of the bush
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Originally posted by Unitarian101 View PostCould you show me the verse where it says that God is the "only Savior", first ?
“But I have been the Lord your God
ever since you came out of Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostHosea 13:4
“But I have been the Lord your God
ever since you came out of Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.
Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
Now, in Hosea 13:4 and Isaiah 43:11 when God says there is no Savior except him, the sense is not that He is literally the "only" Savior but that there is no other Savior like God, otherwise you prove God a liar at verses like Judges 3:9 .
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Originally posted by Unitarian101 View PostYou will notice that the word "only" is not in the text. So to say the bible insists that God is the "only Savior" is misleading.
Now, in Hosea 13:4 and Isaiah 43:11 when God says there is no Savior except him, the sense is not that He is literally the "only" Savior but that there is no other Savior like God, otherwise you prove God a liar at verses like Judges 3:9 .
And yet, in the NT it does just that in many, many verses. It says Jesus is the Savior of the world and of us all. Therefore either the NT or YHWH is lying.
Your little bit about how God can claim to be the only Savior despite Jesus saving us is wrong. Because if you are correct, then it means that the NT is wrong to claim Jesus is the Savior. Because again, the NT is speaking of Jesus being the savior in the same sense as YHWH is claiming to be the exclusive savior. Same with YHWH claiming to be the only God and creator and there is none beside him. That he created alone. And yet in the NT it calls the Son "God" and says he created everything.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostGah! You are nitpicking and trying to be literal again in order to avoid the clear meaning of the text. The clear meaning is that YHWH is the only Savior of Israel and the World. Apart from him there is NO SAVIOR. Clear meaning. Since you are trying to be literal here, the word "like" is not in the verses. The Isrealites are not to acknowledge any other God or any other savior but God.
And yet, in the NT it does just that in many, many verses. It says Jesus is the Savior of the world and of us all. Therefore either the NT or YHWH is lying.
Your little bit about how God can claim to be the only Savior despite Jesus saving us is wrong. Because if you are correct, then it means that the NT is wrong to claim Jesus is the Savior. Because again, the NT is speaking of Jesus being the savior in the same sense as YHWH is claiming to be the exclusive savior. Same with YHWH claiming to be the only God and creator and there is none beside him. That he created alone. And yet in the NT it calls the Son "God" and says he created everything.
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Originally posted by Unitarian101 View PostIf God is the "only Savior" (even though no scripture says this) how can Othniel ben Kenaz also be a "Savior" ? Hate to say this, but you make God out to be a liar with your interpretation .
It's not the word "savior" that is in question, but the job/action it represents. Not merely saving a city or a people but savior of creation itself. Isaiah 43 is God telling Israel how he is exclusively God, the Redeemer, the Creator and the Savior and how he will restore everything. Then we see in the NT that Jesus is called God, the Redeemer, the Creator, and the Savior and will restore everything and save creation and us.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBecause Othniel is not said to be a savior in the same sense as YHWH. But Jesus IS. e.g. The Messiah. Savior of the world. Of our souls.
It's not the word "savior" that is in question, but the job/action it represents. Not merely saving a city or a people but savior of creation itself. Isaiah 43 is God telling Israel how he is exclusively God, the Redeemer, the Creator and the Savior and how he will restore everything. Then we see in the NT that Jesus is called God, the Redeemer, the Creator, and the Savior and will restore everything and save creation and us.
I don't think this is a good argument, nor even a logical and consistent one.
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