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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    It's not about the birth of Abram somehwere in Mesopotamia, but about his namechange.
    Even if that was so (which seems wholly unlikely) - Jesus was claiming to pre-exist Abraham. Of course, that claim does not of itself establish Jesus as God, but it does declare his continuing existence long before Jesus of Nazareth came to be.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • #47
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Even if that was so (which seems wholly unlikely) - Jesus was claiming to pre-exist Abraham. Of course, that claim does not of itself establish Jesus as God, but it does declare his continuing existence long before Jesus of Nazareth came to be.
      There are two verbs in the sentence, γίνομαι = to become and εἶναι = to be

      Like also in John 1:1.14 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος (...) Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

      "to become" seems to denote a process in time, while "to be" seems to denote something that is (ever)lasting.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
        There are two verbs in the sentence, γίνομαι = to become and εἶναι = to be

        Like also in John 1:1.14 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος (...) Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

        "to become" seems to denote a process in time, while "to be" seems to denote something that is (ever)lasting.
        ην is Koine Greek imperfect tense of ειναι (infinitive**) of ειμι (present, active, indicative, first person, singular: "am") - the English equivalent being past progressive/imperfect tense.
        ην = (technically) "was being."

        ** ah - finally is revealed how "everlasting" comes to be in the picture . NO. The grammatical infinitive has nothing to do with being eternal.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
          There are two verbs in the sentence, γίνομαι = to become and εἶναι = to be

          Like also in John 1:1.14 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος (...) Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο

          "to become" seems to denote a process in time, while "to be" seems to denote something that is (ever)lasting.
          That's an odd thing to say, especially underlined above. Look at following example for instance --

          καὶ ἦν ἐκεῖ ἕως τῆς τελευτῆς Ἡρῴδου· ἵνα πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑπὸ κυρίου διὰ τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος Ἐξ Αἰγύπτου ἐκάλεσα τὸν υἱόν μου.
          Matt. 2:15

          He was there for a specific period of time, and not for "everlasting."

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post


            John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him; and without him [a]was not anything made that hath been made. ...14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us

            1. The Word was God.
            2. The Word made flesh was Jesus.

            Therefore Jesus is God.

            Other places Jesus is called God:


            Col. 1:16-17 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


            John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!" [uses the name of God]

            John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

            2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

            Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
            Notice though that the text says the Word was a divine something , not that Jesus was God. Big difference. The Word prior to becoming flesh (i.e. a human being) is not Jesus. Remember, the Jesus of the bible is a human being. We have to be careful to not add into what Scripture really says.

            Also, it's kind of nonsensical to say that someone was God, we say someone is God (especially if he is the God of the Bible).
            Last edited by Unitarian101; 12-13-2019, 09:14 PM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
              Notice though that the text says the Word was a divine something , not that Jesus was God. Big difference. The Word prior to becoming flesh (i.e. a human being) is not Jesus. Remember, the Jesus of the bible is a human being. We have to be careful to not add into what Scripture really says.

              Also, it's kind of nonsensical to say that someone was God, we say someone is God (especially if he is the God of the Bible).
              Are you doing the "Word was a god" thing the JWs do? Or are you claiming John is referring to a different entity that was not Jesus even though the gospel is about Jesus?
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                Are you doing the "Word was a god" thing the JWs do? Or are you claiming John is referring to a different entity that was not Jesus even though the gospel is about Jesus?
                The bible does not say that The Word is Jesus, bit that the Word MADE FLESH is Jesus. So the bible is “claiming” that.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                  The bible does not say that The Word is Jesus, bit that the Word MADE FLESH is Jesus. So the bible is “claiming” that.
                  Are you still saying that Jesus is part of the singular Godhead in all equality and as a separate person within the Godhead -- distinct from modalism?

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                    Are you still saying that Jesus is part of the singular Godhead in all equality and as a separate person within the Godhead -- distinct from modalism?
                    No.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                      Notice though that the text says the Word was a divine something , not that Jesus was God. Big difference. The Word prior to becoming flesh (i.e. a human being) is not Jesus. Remember, the Jesus of the bible is a human being. We have to be careful to not add into what Scripture really says.

                      Also, it's kind of nonsensical to say that someone was God, we say someone is God (especially if he is the God of the Bible).
                      The Word is the second person of the Trinity, God the Son. Who became "Jesus" when he took on flesh. They are the same person.

                      The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:14).

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        The Word is the second person of the Trinity, God the Son. Who became "Jesus" when he took on flesh. They are the same person.

                        The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:14).
                        None of that is scriptural though.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          None of that is scriptural though.
                          Of course it is.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Of course it is.
                            It didn't lay it out for him in clear enough terms. Though, I have no clue of how it could be any clearer.
                            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Of course it is.
                              Nice "argument."

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                                Nice "argument."
                                Thanks. As good as yours was.

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