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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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John 20:28, My Lord and My God

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Uni, if I were a general and I send you on a mission to save some hostages, I MIGHT be able to claim some shared credit with you, but you would have been the one who did the saving. I could hold a press conference and said "Today we saved 10 hostages" but I certainly could not say "I saved the hostages by myself. There was none beside me, no not one! I was their only savior!"
    That’s a false analogy. A Rambo like soldier who is sent on a mission saves by his own strength, but Jesus saved by the power of God.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      So Jesus is just a meat puppet to you then. Got it. Like a remote controlled toy?
      Not quite, he had free will to do the will of his Father or to not do it. But God provided him with the strength to accomplish his mission.

      Comment


      • I don’t think Sparko realizes just how unbiblical his reasoning is. He says that if a general sends a soldier to save someone it is the soldier who has really saved. In the non-biblical context this is true, but within the biblical context this is not the case, assuming the general is God.


        So in Judges 3 God raised a great soldier, judge and saviour named Othniel the son of Knaz, a champion of the children of Israel. The spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he went out to war and he defeated Cushan-rishathaim the king of Aram thereby providing safety for the children of Israel.

        Yet to say that it was Othniel who really defeated the pagan king and saved Israel is wrong. Why ? Because Othniel defeated the king of Aram with the power of God, it was God who had empowered him with his own Spirit. So God, not Othniel is the “ultimate” or “only” Saviour.
        Last edited by Unitarian101; 01-11-2020, 01:10 AM.

        Comment


        • I feel sorry for Christians who claim without strong biblical support that Jesus was God in nature.

          God in the Bible has certain attributes that only fit Him. For example, God knows everything according to 1 John 3:20. But Jesus said in Matthew 24:36 "no one knows of that day or that hour not angels in heaven nor the Son BUT ONLY THE FATHER" and therefore, it is "ONLY THE FATHER" that knows that hour according to Jesus.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
            I don’t think Sparko realizes just how unbiblical his reasoning is. He says that if a general sends a soldier to save someone it is the soldier who has really saved. In the non-biblical context this is true, but within the biblical context this is not the case, assuming the general is God.


            So in Judges 3 God raised a great soldier, judge and saviour named Othniel the son of Knaz, a champion of the children of Israel. The spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he went out to war and he defeated Cushan-rishathaim the king of Aram thereby providing safety for the children of Israel.

            Yet to say that it was Othniel who really defeated the pagan king and saved Israel is wrong. Why ? Because Othniel defeated the king of Aram with the power of God, it was God who had empowered him with his own Spirit. So God, not Othniel is the “ultimate” or “only” Saviour.


            So by your reasoning, if Othniel was called the Savior it would be a lie because God was the only savior?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              So by your reasoning, if Othniel was called the Savior it would be a lie because God was the only savior?
              Could you show me the verse where it says that God is the "only Savior", first ?

              Comment


              • Moses is (called) the savior of Israel

                Rashi on Exodus 1:22,

                https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true

                On the day Moses was born, his astrologers told him [Pharaoh], Today the one who will save them has been born, but we do not know whether from the Egyptians or from the Israelites, but we see that he will ultimately be smitten through water. Therefore, on that day he issued a decree also upon the Egyptians, as it is said: Every son who is born, and it does not say: who is born to the Hebrews. They did not know, however, that he [Moses] would ultimately suffer because of the water of Meribah (Num. 20:7-13) [i.e., that he would not be permitted to enter the Holy Land].
                he saved them from Egyptian slavery by making known to them the name of the one he met at the burning bush

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                  Moses is (called) the savior of Israel

                  Rashi on Exodus 1:22,

                  https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true



                  he saved them from Egyptian slavery by making known to them the name of the one he met at the burning bush
                  Which is also behind John 1:17,
                  For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

                  https://twitter.com/Minkmaat/status/989778752543641600

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                    Moses is (called) the savior of Israel

                    Rashi on Exodus 1:22,

                    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible...showrashi/true



                    he saved them from Egyptian slavery by making known to them the name of the one he met at the burning bush

                    the one who met him ...

                    Exodus 3:2,

                    and there appeared to him the angel of the Lord in a flame of fire from the midst of the bush

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                      Could you show me the verse where it says that God is the "only Savior", first ?
                      Hosea 13:4
                      “But I have been the Lord your God
                      ever since you came out of Egypt.
                      You shall acknowledge no God but me,
                      no Savior except me.

                      Isaiah 43:11
                      I, even I, am the Lord,
                      and apart from me there is no savior.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Hosea 13:4
                        “But I have been the Lord your God
                        ever since you came out of Egypt.
                        You shall acknowledge no God but me,
                        no Savior except me.

                        Isaiah 43:11
                        I, even I, am the Lord,
                        and apart from me there is no savior.
                        You will notice that the word "only" is not in the text. So to say the bible insists that God is the "only Savior" is misleading.

                        Now, in Hosea 13:4 and Isaiah 43:11 when God says there is no Savior except him, the sense is not that He is literally the "only" Savior but that there is no other Savior like God, otherwise you prove God a liar at verses like Judges 3:9 .

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          You will notice that the word "only" is not in the text. So to say the bible insists that God is the "only Savior" is misleading.

                          Now, in Hosea 13:4 and Isaiah 43:11 when God says there is no Savior except him, the sense is not that He is literally the "only" Savior but that there is no other Savior like God, otherwise you prove God a liar at verses like Judges 3:9 .
                          Gah! You are nitpicking and trying to be literal again in order to avoid the clear meaning of the text. The clear meaning is that YHWH is the only Savior of Israel and the World. Apart from him there is NO SAVIOR. Clear meaning. Since you are trying to be literal here, the word "like" is not in the verses. The Isrealites are not to acknowledge any other God or any other savior but God.

                          And yet, in the NT it does just that in many, many verses. It says Jesus is the Savior of the world and of us all. Therefore either the NT or YHWH is lying.

                          Your little bit about how God can claim to be the only Savior despite Jesus saving us is wrong. Because if you are correct, then it means that the NT is wrong to claim Jesus is the Savior. Because again, the NT is speaking of Jesus being the savior in the same sense as YHWH is claiming to be the exclusive savior. Same with YHWH claiming to be the only God and creator and there is none beside him. That he created alone. And yet in the NT it calls the Son "God" and says he created everything.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Gah! You are nitpicking and trying to be literal again in order to avoid the clear meaning of the text. The clear meaning is that YHWH is the only Savior of Israel and the World. Apart from him there is NO SAVIOR. Clear meaning. Since you are trying to be literal here, the word "like" is not in the verses. The Isrealites are not to acknowledge any other God or any other savior but God.

                            And yet, in the NT it does just that in many, many verses. It says Jesus is the Savior of the world and of us all. Therefore either the NT or YHWH is lying.

                            Your little bit about how God can claim to be the only Savior despite Jesus saving us is wrong. Because if you are correct, then it means that the NT is wrong to claim Jesus is the Savior. Because again, the NT is speaking of Jesus being the savior in the same sense as YHWH is claiming to be the exclusive savior. Same with YHWH claiming to be the only God and creator and there is none beside him. That he created alone. And yet in the NT it calls the Son "God" and says he created everything.
                            If God is the "only Savior" (even though no scripture says this) how can Othniel ben Kenaz also be a "Savior" ? Hate to say this, but you make God out to be a liar with your interpretation .

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                              If God is the "only Savior" (even though no scripture says this) how can Othniel ben Kenaz also be a "Savior" ? Hate to say this, but you make God out to be a liar with your interpretation .
                              Because Othniel is not said to be a savior in the same sense as YHWH. But Jesus IS. e.g. The Messiah. Savior of the world. Of our souls.

                              It's not the word "savior" that is in question, but the job/action it represents. Not merely saving a city or a people but savior of creation itself. Isaiah 43 is God telling Israel how he is exclusively God, the Redeemer, the Creator and the Savior and how he will restore everything. Then we see in the NT that Jesus is called God, the Redeemer, the Creator, and the Savior and will restore everything and save creation and us.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Because Othniel is not said to be a savior in the same sense as YHWH. But Jesus IS. e.g. The Messiah. Savior of the world. Of our souls.

                                It's not the word "savior" that is in question, but the job/action it represents. Not merely saving a city or a people but savior of creation itself. Isaiah 43 is God telling Israel how he is exclusively God, the Redeemer, the Creator and the Savior and how he will restore everything. Then we see in the NT that Jesus is called God, the Redeemer, the Creator, and the Savior and will restore everything and save creation and us.
                                It is precisely because God could not die for our sins that Jesus is a savior in a different sense than God is. Also, even if we grant (for the sake of argument) that he was a savior "in the same sense" that God is, it would then be that there are two Saviors (albeit in the same sense) , not one Savior.

                                I don't think this is a good argument, nor even a logical and consistent one.

                                Comment

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