Announcement

Collapse

Biblical Languages 301 Guidelines

This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Jehovah's Witnesses translation of John 1

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by Georg Kaplin View Post
    Hi,
    You wanted to talk about Sharp's when I did not refer to it, so just for you, I updated the paper. I was told by the Admin that I could put the link to the files in my .signature.

    Best Regards
    Georg

    -------
    Signature: https://independent.academia.edu/GeorgKaplin
    sigh, That's not your signature. Your signature can be edited here:
    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/pr...=editsignature

    Proud Member of Da Blonde's Axis of Evil, Adam's Dirty Dozen, Dee Dee's Goon Squad, Tweb's In-Crowd, The Brood of Vipers & Exorcised by Ty & Dee Dee, and the only person who ever banned rogue06!

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Here is what you ask the JW's.


      How many True Gods are there? (The bible teaches there is only one TRUE God and any other God is a false god)

      If Jesus is "A" god, is he a True God or a False God?

      If he is a True God, and there is only one True God, then he must be the same God as Jehovah.

      If he is a false god, then we should not follow him or his teachings.

      One rejoinder that they will use is that Moses is called god in the OT. But he was not. He was said to be "as God"


      Exodus 4:16 “Moreover, he shall speak for you to the people; and he will be as a mouth for you and you will be as God to him.
      Exodus 7:1 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.

      Meaning moses was not "a god" but represented God to the Aaron and Pharaoh. It is figurative. If John 1:1 is translated correctly in their bible, then it is saying Jesus is LITERALLY a god.



      ---

      As far as the translation goes, it is incorrect. Here are a few links for more detailed information:

      https://www.jashow.org/articles/gues...s-and-john-11/
      https://carm.org/john-1-1-word-was-god

      https://carm.org/john-1-1-word-was-god
      That (red) is not true. Here's the Septuagint LXX:

      ΚΑΙ εἶπε Κύριος πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων· ἰδοὺ δέδωκά σε θεὸν Φαραώ, καὶ ᾿Ααρὼν ὁ ἀδελφός σου ἔσται σου προφήτης·
      Literally "Behold, I have made you a god to Pharaoh. " Had the text used the adjective ὡς ("as") then you would be right: "....ὡς θεὸν Φαραώ,.."But as you can see, there is no such adjective.

      So, was Moses a true god or a false god ?

      To be sure above is a silly question, since the word θεός in the bible (especially when it is anarthrous) has a relatively wide range and function . Sometimes it refers to the only true God (that is to the Father), at other times to human representatives of God (as in John 10:34), yet at other times to Angels in heaven (Psalms 8:5, Hebrew אֱלֹהִים , LXX ἄγγελοι), and even to Satan (2 Cor. 4:4).

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        easily handled. In psalm 82, which Jesus is quoting (I believe sarcastically) the verse make it clear that "elohim" (gods) refers to judges and leaders and they are indeed "false gods" because the psalm goes on to say "you will die like men" - God was chastising the leaders saying that while they were like gods, they would die regardless because of their failures to do right.

        Here is the JW (NWT) translation of Psalm 82

        God takes his place in the divine assembly;*+ In the middle of the gods* he judges:+ 2 “How long will you continue to judge with injustice+ And show partiality to the wicked?+ (Selah) 3 Defend* the lowly and the fatherless.+ Render justice to the helpless and destitute.+ 4 Rescue the lowly and the poor; Save them out of the hand of the wicked.” 5 They do not know, nor do they understand;+ They are walking about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are being shaken.+ 6 “I have said, ‘You are gods,*+ All of you are sons of the Most High. 7 But you will die just as men do;+ And like any other prince you will fall!’”


        I don't think they would want to associate Jesus with these guys.
        You have completely mis-understood and corrupted the psalm. Here is the Greek:


        Ψαλμὸς τῷ ᾿Ασάφ. - Ο ΘΕΟΣ ἔστη ἐν συναγωγῇ θεῶν, ἐν μέσῳ δὲ θεοὺς διακρινεῖ. 2 ἕως πότε κρίνετε ἀδικίαν καὶ πρόσωπα ἁμαρτωλῶν λαμβάνετε; (διάψαλμα). 3 κρίνατε ὀρφανῷ καὶ πτωχῷ, ταπεινὸν καὶ πένητα δικαιώσατε· 4 ἐξέλεσθε πένητα καὶ πτωχόν, ἐκ χειρὸς ἁμαρτωλοῦ ῥύσασθε αὐτόν. 5 οὐκ ἔγνωσαν οὐδὲ συνῆκαν, ἐν σκότει διαπορεύονται· σαλευθήσονται πάντα τὰ θεμέλια τῆς γῆς. 6 ἐγὼ εἶπα· θεοί ἐστε καὶ υἱοὶ ῾Υψίστου πάντες· 7 ὑμεῖς δὲ ὡς ἄνθρωποι ἀποθνήσκετε καὶ ὡς εἷς τῶν ἀρχόντων πίπτετε. 8 ἀνάστα, ὁ Θεός, κρίνων τὴν γῆν, ὅτι σὺ κατακληρονομήσεις ἐν πᾶσι τοῖς ἔθνεσι.

        Here is the translation:

        1 [A Psalm for Asaph.] God stands in the assembly of the gods, in their midst he judges . 2 How long will ye judge unrighteously, and accept the persons of sinners? Pause. 3 Judge the orphan and poor: do justice to the low and needy. 4 Rescue the needy, and deliver the poor out of the hand of the sinner. 5 They know not, nor understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be shaken. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all [of you] children of the Most High. 7 But ye die as men, and fall as one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

        Verse 1, God stands in the assembly of the gods and in their midst (i.e. of the gods) he judges.

        Why would God stand in the midst of false Judges ? This picture here is of a Sovereign surrounded by His servants and Who is meeting out judgment. Whoever these gods are, they are not "false" or unworthy. They are either the Angels of heaven, or the righteous Saints, or the prophets of God.


        The Hebrew verifies the LXX Greek here as well:

        Psalm 82:1 מִזְמֹור לְאָסָף אֱֽלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּֽט׃
        Last edited by Unitarian101; 07-03-2019, 08:58 PM.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
          Literally "Behold, I have made you a god to Pharaoh. " Had the text used the adjective ὡς ("as") then you would be right: "....ὡς θεὸν Φαραώ,.."But as you can see, there is no such adjective.
          Yet we read in the parallel passage (Ex. 4:16) "σὺ δὲ αὐτῷ ἔσῃ τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν", or in the Hebrew "תִּֽהְיֶה־לֹּ֥ו לֵֽאלֹהִֽים", translated therefore "you will be as God," and similarly in Ex. 7:1.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
            Why would God stand in the midst of false Judges ? This picture here is of a Sovereign surrounded by His servants and Who is meeting out judgment. Whoever these gods are, they are not "false" or unworthy. They are either the Angels of heaven, or the righteous Saints, or the prophets of God.
            But you missed Sparko's point, that the Lord says to them "you will die like men", so this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Yet we read in the parallel passage (Ex. 4:16) "σὺ δὲ αὐτῷ ἔσῃ τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν", or in the Hebrew "תִּֽהְיֶה־לֹּ֥ו לֵֽאלֹהִֽים", translated therefore "you will be as God," and similarly in Ex. 7:1.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              You will be “in place of” God..In other words you will represent God. Regardless, this issue is irrelevant to the point that at Exodus 7:1 Moses is said to be a god, not like / as a god. The term אֱלֹהִים / θεός In the bible has a wider range and function than you appreciate.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                You will be “in place of” God..In other words you will represent God. Regardless, this issue is irrelevant to the point that at Exodus 7:1 Moses is said to be a god, not like / as a god. The term אֱלֹהִים / θεός In the bible has a wider range and function than you appreciate.
                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                But you missed Sparko's point, that the Lord says to them "you will die like men", so this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                Well, all prophets die and then go to heaven. The prophets Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus , did they not ?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                  You will be “in place of” God..In other words you will represent God.
                  Or "you will be as God".

                  Regardless, this issue is irrelevant to the point that at Exodus 7:1 Moses is said to be a god, not like / as a god.
                  But this clearly echoes Exodus 4:16, so the meaning would be the same.

                  The term אֱלֹהִים / θεός In the bible has a wider range and function than you appreciate.
                  I recognize that Elohim / Theos can mean a god (or human judges, in the case of Elohim).

                  Originally posted by lee_merrill
                  But you missed Sparko's point, that the Lord says to them "you will die like men", so this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.
                  Well, all prophets die and then go to heaven. The prophets Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus , did they not ?
                  Yes, but they died, so again this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    Or "you will be as God".


                    But this clearly echoes Exodus 4:16, so the meaning would be the same.



                    Lee
                    Don't see how that helps you ? It would then be that when scripture says to someone "you're a god" it just means that they are as a god.



                    I recognize that Elohim / Theos can mean a god (or human judges, in the case of Elohim).
                    According to Jesus's interpretation, the "gods" of Psalm 82:1 are those human beings to whom the word of God came. And who are these folks ? They are not the generic judges of Israel. Perhaps the following scriptures might help:

                    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
                    Ezekiel 13:1


                    καὶ ἀνέστη Δαυιδ τὸ πρωί καὶ λόγος κυρίου ἐγένετο πρὸς Γαδ τὸνπροφήτην τὸν ὁρῶντα Δαυιδ λέγων
                    2 Samuel 24:11


                    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν ἄνθρωπον τοῦ θεοῦ λέγων
                    1 Kings 12:22


                    καὶ ἐγένετο ῥῆμα κυρίου πρὸς Ηλιου
                    1 Kings 17:8


                    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με ἐκ δευτέρου λέγων τί σὺ ὁρᾷς καὶεἶπα λέβητα ὑποκαιόμενον καὶ τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ προσώπου βορρᾶ
                    Jeremiah 1:13

                    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων τί σὺ ὁρᾷς Ιερεμια καὶ εἶπαβακτηρίαν καρυΐνην
                    Jeremiah 1:11

                    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ησαιαν λέγων
                    Isaiah 38:4

                    καὶ ἐγενήθη λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
                    Jeremiah 13:8

                    καὶ ἐγένετο μετὰ τὰς ἑπτὰ ἡμέρας λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
                    Ezekiel 3:16

                    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
                    Ezekiel 11:14

                    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου ἐν χειρὶ Αγγαιου τοῦ προφήτου λέγων
                    Haggai 1:3

                    αὐτὸς ἀπέστησεν τὸ ὅριον Ισραηλ ἀπὸ εἰσόδου Αιμαθ ἕως τῆςθαλάσσης τῆς Αραβα κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμα κυρίου θεοῦ Ισραηλ ὃ ἐλάλησεν ἐν χειρὶδούλου αὐτοῦ Ιωνα υἱοῦ Αμαθι τοῦ προφήτου τοῦ ἐκ Γεθχοβερ
                    2 Kings 14:25

                    τῇ τετράδι καὶ εἰκάδι τῷ ἑνδεκάτῳ μηνί οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ μὴν Σαβατ ἐν τῷδευτέρῳ ἔτει ἐπὶ Δαρείου ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ζαχαριαν τὸν τοῦΒαραχιου υἱὸν Αδδω τὸν προφήτην λέγων
                    Zechariah 1:7

                    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
                    Ezekiel 21:18

                    καὶ ἐγενήθη ῥῆμα κυρίου πρὸς Σαμουηλ λέγων
                    1 Samuel 15:10


                    καὶ ἐγένετο ἐπ᾽ ἐμοὶ λόγος κυρίου λέγων αἷμα εἰς πλῆθος ἐξέχεας καὶπολέμους μεγάλους ἐποίησας οὐκ οἰκοδομήσεις οἶκον τῷ ὀνόματί μου ὅτιαἵματα πολλὰ ἐξέχεας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἐναντίον μου
                    1 Ch. 22:8

                    καὶ εἰσῆλθεν ἐκεῗ εἰς τὸ σπήλαιον καὶ κατέλυσεν ἐκεῗ καὶ ἰδοὺ ῥῆμακυρίου πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ εἶπεν τί σὺ ἐνταῦθα Ηλιου
                    1 Kings 19:9






                    ἐπ᾽ ἀρχιερέων Ἅννα καὶ Καϊάφα ἐγένετο ῥῆμα θεοῦ ἐπὶ Ἰωάννην τὸντοῦ Ζαχαρίου υἱὸν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ
                    Luke 3:2

                    καὶ ἐγένετο αὐτῶν καθημένων ἐπὶ τῆς τραπέζης καὶ ἐγένετο λόγοςκυρίου πρὸς τὸν προφήτην τὸν ἐπιστρέψαντα αὐτὸν
                    1 Kings 13:20

                    etc., etc.
                    See it ? ....The "gods" in Psalm 82:1 are the OT prophets, according to Jesus.


                    Yes, but they died, so again this cannot be angels or saints or prophets in heaven.

                    Blessings,
                    That's eisegesis. I think you should read that psalm again... Besides, the judges didn't die ?
                    Last edited by Unitarian101; 08-24-2019, 05:30 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                      Don't see how that helps you ? It would then be that when scripture says to someone "you're a god" it just means that they are as a god.
                      Not necessarily, I only hold that the parallel passages in Exodus show Moses is "as God" to Pharaoh.

                      According to Jesus's interpretation, the "gods" of Psalm 82:1 are those human beings to whom the word of God came. And who are these folks ? They are not the generic judges of Israel.
                      Yes, humans are referred to as "gods".

                      See it ? ....The "gods" in Psalm 82:1 are the OT prophets, according to Jesus.
                      Though I think Psalm 82:1 refers to all humanity, including those to whom Jesus was speaking.

                      Besides, the judges didn't die ?
                      Well, they are said to die in the Psalm, which leads me to believe this is addressing humans.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Not necessarily, I only hold that the parallel passages in Exodus show Moses is "as God" to Pharaoh.


                        Yes, humans are referred to as "gods".


                        Though I think Psalm 82:1 refers to all humanity, including those to whom Jesus was speaking.


                        Well, they are said to die in the Psalm, which leads me to believe this is addressing humans.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        Precisely.

                        If the Jews were accusing Jesus of making himself the Almighty,
                        he could not have quoted a verse where human beings are called "gods." In other words, if the Jews were accusing Jesus of being God Almighty, and if he agreed with this charge, he would have said something like "it is as you say" and would then have proceeded to quote a verse from the OT where God calls himself the Almighty and appropriated it to himself.

                        So the Jews were accusing Jesus of making himself "a god" ( a prophet of God), not God. In other words, the charge was that he was a false prophet. Jesus tells them in verse 34 that he is in fact more excellent than the gods, he is the Son of God, the prophet par excellence (Deut. 18:15), the Messiah.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          If the Jews were accusing Jesus of making himself the Almighty, he could not have quoted a verse where human beings are called "gods."
                          But Jesus is making a "how much more" argument, "If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?" (Jn 10:35–36)

                          In other words, if the Jews were accusing Jesus of being God Almighty, and if he agreed with this charge, he would have said something like "it is as you say" and would then have proceeded to quote a verse from the OT where God calls himself the Almighty and appropriated it to himself.
                          Instead Jesus clearly claimed to be God's Son (v. 36) who is one with the Father (v. 30). This is a way of describing the Trinity, which was a new concept to the Jewish people.

                          So the Jews were accusing Jesus of making himself "a god" ( a prophet of God), not God.
                          Well, no, they wouldn't have picked up stones to stone him for that.

                          “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (Jn 10:33)

                          Jesus tells them in verse 34 that he is in fact more excellent than the gods, he is the Son of God, the prophet par excellence (Deut. 18:15), the Messiah.
                          Amen!

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                            But Jesus is making a "how much more" argument, "If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?" (Jn 10:35–36)


                            Instead Jesus clearly claimed to be God's Son (v. 36) who is one with the Father (v. 30).
                            kal va-khomer (Argumentum a minori ad maius). In other words the logic is as follows -- If the prophets are called gods, how much more I [the prophet par excellence, Deut. 18:15) am justified in calling myself the son of God (not even calling myself "a god," [which was more offensive to their sensibilities ] !)



                            This is a way of describing the Trinity,
                            If it was, it was a rather poor way of doing so.


                            which was a new concept to the Jewish people.
                            I bet, Because it didn't exist in their scriptures. No, there is no Trinity in the context here.


                            Well, no, they wouldn't have picked up stones to stone him for that.
                            Sure they would. A false prophet (they were convinced Jesus was performing his miracles via the agency of Balzebul and not by God) was to be expeditiously (there and then) stoned to death . But there is nothing in the Jewish law which asserts that someone claiming to be God Himself was to be put to death. The laws of compassion and of pity would then come into play -- take him to the nearest sanitarium.

                            “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (Jn 10:33)
                            Because you claim to be "a god" (i.e. a prophet of God), as Jesus's response in invoking Psalm 82 proves.

                            If the accusation was that Jesus was making himself God Almighty, and most importantly, if Jesus agreed with this accusation , his response at John 10:34 would have been radically different. In fact his actual response contradicts the charge. You see, if Jesus was agreeing with the Jews' (apparent) charge against him , he would have cited one of the hundreds of verses from the OT where God declares Himself to be the Almighty and applied it to himself in his defense. So in John 10:34 Jesus would have choose from, say, Exodus 3:16:

                            Jesus: " Is it not written in your law, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob ?"

                            As is, Jesus uses a verse where the word אלוהימ / θεός does NOT mean God (Almighty). And such a definition of θεός is incredibly hard to find in the OT ! Jesus's choice of verse was very deliberate indeed.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                              ... the logic is as follows -- If the prophets are called gods, how much more I [the prophet par excellence, Deut. 18:15) am justified in calling myself the son of God (not even calling myself "a god," [which was more offensive to their sensibilities ] !)
                              The son here, the only son, who is one with the Father. Jesus is saying he is greater than the gods, greater than humans.

                              I bet, Because it didn't exist in their scriptures.
                              There are lots of indications of plurality in the Godhead in the OT, Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 9:6 are a few such references.

                              Sure they would. A false prophet (they were convinced Jesus was performing his miracles via the agency of Balzebul and not by God) was to be expeditiously (there and then) stoned to death.
                              But where did they say Jesus was a false prophet?

                              “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (Jn 10:33)

                              ... if Jesus was agreeing with the Jews' (apparent) charge against him , he would have cited one of the hundreds of verses from the OT where God declares Himself to be the Almighty and applied it to himself in his defense.
                              "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (Jn 10:29–30)

                              "The Father is greater than all, I and the Father are one." Admirably done. And Jesus did not contradict his statement, he replied in effect saying that he is greater than the greatest of humans.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                The son here, the only son, who is one with the Father. Jesus is saying he is greater than the gods, greater than humans.

                                If words have meaning, that's tantamount to saying that he is not human. In anycase, whenever scripture says that one human is "greater"or more "important" or "superior" etc. than another (or others), it is not speaking to ontology but to their respective mission or character or power etc. Scripture must be exegeted, not eisegeted.



                                There are lots of indications of plurality in the Godhead in the OT, Genesis 1:26, Isaiah 9:6 are a few such references.
                                Even Wallace rejects this, Net Bible :


                                47sn The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text. Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory. In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court. In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God’s messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.” See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.) If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of humankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way. Since the image is closely associated with rulership, perhaps they share the divine image in that they, together with God and under his royal authority, are the executive authority over the world.

                                48tn The Hebrew word is אָדָם (Â’adam), which can sometimes refer to man, as opposed to woman. The term refers here to humankind, comprised of male and female. The singular is clearly collective (see the plural verb, “[that] they may rule” in v. 26b) and the referent is defined specifically as “male and female” in v. 27. Usage elsewhere in Gen 1-11 supports this as well. In 5:2 we read: “Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and called their name ‘humankindÂ’ (אָדָם).” The noun also refers to humankind in 6:1, 5-7 and in 9:5-6.
                                Again, scripture must not be eisegeted or else one falls into a deep pit.

                                --

                                But where did they say Jesus was a false prophet?
                                When they rejected his claim to being the Messiah of Israel. See Matt. 26:63-65 etc. Jesus's disciples teach that he was that Prophet like unto Moses:

                                For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.'
                                Acts 3:22 - 23.



                                “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (Jn 10:33)
                                We have been through this..


                                "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (Jn 10:29–30)

                                "The Father is greater than all, I and the Father are one." Admirably done. And Jesus did not contradict his statement, he replied in effect saying that he is greater than the greatest of humans.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                The oneness is of purpose and mission, not of ontology. Look at the context, see John 17:21 etc..

                                Exegesis, not eisegesis...

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X