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Paul and the Role of Women

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  • Paul and the Role of Women

    There is something odd about the piece at 1 Cor 14: 34-36 - the slap down of verse 36 seems entirely out of place, so I ran the section through a machine translation exercise.


    Verse 34: ... Well - wouldn't that rot your socks?

    The Byzantine majority (blue cell) has either an unidentified "he" or "she" who hasn't permitted women to speak, or that women have not been permitted to speak . The UBS5 (pink cell) has either an unidentified someone not permitting women to speak or that women are not being given permission to speak. On that score, the difference between the Byzantine Majority and the UBS5 is a mere technicality. What isn't a technicality comes with "women" - if the verbs are passive, the word, women, must be the subject/nominative: it isn't, it's dative, so "women are not permitted to speak" would not be a valid translation.

    With that, the middle voice remains - and the actor is one person, but not Paul: it is not "I do not permit" but "he/she/it does not permit." Paul stipulates a third person (he, she, it) as the actor, not himself, and with that, the slap down delivered generally (the "you" is plural), "Was it from you that the word of God went forth? Or has it come to you only?" becomes understandable. The actor can't be "the law" because the law is an additional factor ("the law also says"), but no such law can be found anywhere in scripture anyway.

    Of course, there is argument in some circles that the verses are an interpolation - but their wording makes that claim kind of irrelevant.
    1 Cor 14:34
    αι 0 def art: nom fem pl ...
    2 γυναικες αι noun: nom fem pl ‡ women (subj)
    1 υμων prsnl prnn: gtv pl of You (pl), Your (pl)
    4 εν prpstn: dtv in, with, by, among, during
    5 ταις def art dtv fem pl to? the
    6 εκκλησιαις noun: ταις dtv fem pl ‡ congregations
    3 σιγατωσαν vb: prs act imprtv 3pp they   are to remain silent
    2 ου 1 negating adj no, not
    1 γαρ γαρ conjunct. forbecause
    3 επιτετραπται vb: pfct mid.psv indctv 3ps he.she.it   has permitted <?>
    3 επιτρεπεται vb: prs mid.psv indctv 3ps he.she.it   gets <?> permitted
    4 αυταις pers prnn: dtv fem pl them (indr obj)
    5 λαλειν prs actv infntv to speak
    6 αλλ conjAdverse but
    7 υποτασσεσθαι vb: prs mid.psv infntv to get <?> subordinated
    8 καθως advb just as
    9 και 1 cnjnctn also
    10 ο 1 def art: nom, masc, sgl the (+ subj)
    11 νομος o noun: nom masc sgl   law (subj)
    12 λεγει vb: prs actv indctv 3ps he.she.it   does say is saying
    Last edited by tabibito; 04-06-2023, 10:24 AM.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

  • #2
    So: If the passive voice is permitted, "it is not permitted that women speak ... Was it from you that the word of God went forth? Or has it come to you only?"
    The claim, and the slap-down.
    Not permitted by whom?

    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      So: If the passive voice is permitted, "it is not permitted that women speak ... Was it from you that the word of God went forth? Or has it come to you only?"
      The claim, and the slap-down.
      Not permitted by whom?
      I believe that a wife should be learning from her husband (at home), but is permitted to listen in church. Then she might know what to ask her husband about if she has questions.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        So: If the passive voice is permitted, "it is not permitted that women speak ... Was it from you that the word of God went forth? Or has it come to you only?"
        The claim, and the slap-down.
        Not permitted by whom?
        Cindy Westfall posits that in this case "the law" may just mean "the custom," or something along those lines, rather than "the Law." My reflexive reaction is that such usage is atypical for Paul, but I have not even tried to trace all his uses of the expression.

        I know that's not your focus here, just sayin'.
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Federalist.

        Nationalist Christian.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

        Justice for Matthew Perna!

        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

          Cindy Westfall posits that in this case "the law" may just mean "the custom," or something along those lines, rather than "the Law." My reflexive reaction is that such usage is atypical for Paul, but I have not even tried to trace all his uses of the expression.

          I know that's not your focus here, just sayin'.
          It is an interesting point - if "custom" is permitted, Paul is most definitely not venturing his own edict but referring to the local congregation's custom, likely drawn from secular society. I will look into it.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • #6
            On Facebook, Marg Mowczko alerted her readers to this item from the NT Textual Criticism Group. It's about a presentation at "SBL" (Society for Biblical Literature?) concerning studies of the ink composition of Codex Vaticanus, especially the distigmai, and the relevance to Payne's view that 1 Cor. 14:34-35 constitute an interpolation. Apparently they unexpectedly tend to refute his view.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              On Facebook, Marg Mowczko alerted her readers to this item from the NT Textual Criticism Group. It's about a presentation at "SBL" (Society for Biblical Literature?) concerning studies of the ink composition of Codex Vaticanus, especially the distigmai, and the relevance to Payne's view that 1 Cor. 14:34-35 constitute an interpolation. Apparently they unexpectedly tend to refute his view.
              Anytime that people don't like what is recorded in the Bible, "later interpolation" is one of the excuses advanced. However, when a pericope appears in different positions in the text, there is a better than reasonable chance that the passage is in fact a later interpolation. I doubt that any number of earlier texts could be found that don't include the section would (and none from the timeframe including it) would be considered persuasive though.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment

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