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Biblical Languages 301 Guidelines

This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת שִׁשִּׁים וָשֵׁשׁ כִּכַּר

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    See my edited post #16
    Thanks, but you've added other passages. How do know (why would you think) that John was thinking something different in Hebrew than what he wrote in Greek in John 19,19, ie, with the Greek definite article?

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  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Precisely my point. John was written in Greek. How do you know he was thinking instead about Hebrew gematria and imagining that what was written on the 'charge' was different than what he himself had written in Greek?
    See my edited post #16

    Leave a comment:


  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    John is written in Greek,

    ἔγραψεν δὲ καὶ τίτλον ὁ Πιλᾶτος καὶ ἔθηκεν ἐπὶ τοῦ σταυροῦ: ἦν δὲ γεγραμμένον, Ἰησοῦς ὁ Ναζωραῖος ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων. τοῦτον οὖν τὸν τίτλον πολλοὶ ἀνέγνωσαν τῶν Ἰουδαίων, ὅτι ἐγγὺς ἦν ὁ τόπος τῆς πόλεως ὅπου ἐσταυρώθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς: καὶ ἦν γεγραμμένον Ἑβραϊστί, Ῥωμαϊστί, Ἑλληνιστί.
    Precisely my point. John was written in Greek. How do you know he was thinking instead about Hebrew gematria and imagining that what was written on the 'charge' was different than what he himself had written in Greek?

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I must be missing something because I'm not sure how verse 15 relates to what you are saying.

    With respect to verse 19, you seem to be imagining that John was thinking in Hebrew while writing Greek, more specifically that he was thinking notsri instead of hanotsri or natsrat, even 'though he does use the definite article in Greek.

    How do you know that John was thinking something different than what he wrote?



    Maybe John would say to you: ὃ γέγραφα, γέγραφα.

    John is written in Greek,

    ἔγραψεν δὲ καὶ τίτλον ὁ Πιλᾶτος καὶ ἔθηκεν ἐπὶ τοῦ σταυροῦ: ἦν δὲ γεγραμμένον, Ἰησοῦς ὁ Ναζωραῖος ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων. τοῦτον οὖν τὸν τίτλον πολλοὶ ἀνέγνωσαν τῶν Ἰουδαίων, ὅτι ἐγγὺς ἦν ὁ τόπος τῆς πόλεως ὅπου ἐσταυρώθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς: καὶ ἦν γεγραμμένον Ἑβραϊστί, Ῥωμαϊστί, Ἑλληνιστί.

    And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.


    That John was thinking in terms of Hebrew gematria might be clear from the number of 153 large fish, and also from the 38 years the man at the pool had been sick, and also from the calling out of the grave of Lazarus.

    The 153rd word of the Torah being "tov" = good. "tov" has gematria 17; if the earth would have brought forth what was asked in Genesis 1:11, then the "tov" in v.12 would been the 154th word --
    The number is also in Ezekiel 47:10, מֵעֵין גֶּדִי וְעַד עֵין עֶגְלַיִם, "g'di"= 17; "eglajim"= 153.

    The number 38, I think is a play with "chol"= profane/ "choleh" = sick.cf. Rashi on Genesis 2:2,
    And God completed on the seventh day: Rabbi Shimon said: [A human being of] flesh and blood, who cannot [exactly] know his times and his moments, must add from the profane to the holy = צריך להוסיף מחול על הקודש
    , ("chol" = profane, is normally spelled without "vav").

    Next John has another man sick, Lazarus. I think the name alludes to the 318 trained servants of Abraham with whom he gained victory over the four kigns in favor of the five (Genesis 14:14), 318 being gematria of Eliezer, and also of "siach"in Genesis 2:5. "siach" = bush, shrub; but also speech; thought, meditation, which places stress on the "mist" , Hebrew אֵד, (Genesis 2:6) as being the principle not only of time (nothing could grow without it) but also of speech and also of resurrection. LXX tranlates "ed" with πηγὴ, a word that also occurs in John and more times in Revelation, and I think it alludes to "ed"; even as the word that was "εν ἀρχῇ ".
    Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 03-08-2014, 03:09 AM.

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  • Catholicity
    replied
    so codex gimma 3 ex 4 times esocook all adds to 666 right?

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  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    The gematria of "Yeshu Hanotsri" is 671, while gematria of "Yeshu Notsri" is 666.

    John seems to play with this, also since verse 15 said: Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

    John 19:19-20,
    And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.


    Greek Ἰησοῦς Ναζωραῖος ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων.

    Latin: Iesus Nazarenus rex Iudaeorum , abbreviated to the wellknown INRI on Roman crucifixes.
    I must be missing something because I'm not sure how verse 15 relates to what you are saying.

    With respect to verse 19, you seem to be imagining that John was thinking in Hebrew while writing Greek, more specifically that he was thinking notsri instead of hanotsri or natsrat, even 'though he does use the definite article in Greek.

    How do you know that John was thinking something different than what he wrote?

    Maybe John would say to you: ὃ γέγραφα, γέγραφα.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Revelation 13:18 begins with; "Here is the wisdom"

    The principle of wisdom being the fear of Hashem / the Lord (after Psalms 111:10 and Proverbs 9:10).

    Hashem is the Tetragrammaton hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashisihi vay'chulu hashamayim".

    Which might make clear what the number of the beast is about.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Note that Revelation 13:18 doesn't say that the beast is a human being but that the number of the beast is the number of a man.

    Beast = θηρίον, plural θηρία

    LXX Genesis 1:25 , καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὰ θηρία τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος καὶ τὰ κτήνη κατὰ γένος καὶ πάντα τὰ ἑρπετὰ τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος αὐτῶν καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλά

    If man wouldn't have been created the first chapter of Genesis would have ended with this verse, only that should have been added: καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί ἡμέρα ἕκτη , in HEbrew: "vay'hi erev vay'hi boker yom shishi"--

    But since no man would have been there to write it up and no man to read it, it wouldn't have been written at all. Creation wouldn't have had any sense.

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  • RBerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    Note Rashi's comment on Genesis 1:31 "yom hashishi", the sixth day:
    Yup, definitely Bible Codey. Leave the Sudoku for the funny pages.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    The gematria of "Yeshu Hanotsri" is 671, while gematria of "Yeshu Notsri" is 666.

    John seems to play with this, also since verse 15 said: Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

    John 19:19-20,
    And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.


    Greek Ἰησοῦς Ναζωραῖος ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων.

    Latin: Iesus Nazarenus rex Iudaeorum , abbreviated to the wellknown INRI on Roman crucifixes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Seems a little arbitrary to include 'vessels' but not to include 'gold' just to get the sum to equal 666.
    "talents"

    Ok that's true , but anyhow without "zahav" the initials count up to 666.

    The talent, "kikkar", seems to be determined by the Menora Moses was shown on the mountain, i.e. by the light.
    Exodus 25:39-40, He shall make it of a talent of pure gold, with all these implements.Now see and make according to their pattern, which you are shown on the mountain

    Rashi:
    Now see and make: See here on the mountain the pattern that I am showing you. [This] informs us that Moses had difficulties with the construction of the menorah, until the Holy One, blessed is He, showed him a [model] menorah of fire. -[from Men. 29a]

    Leave a comment:


  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
    1 Kings 10:14,
    The weight of gold which came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold.

    Remarkable is that the initials of שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת שִׁשִּׁים וָשֵׁשׁ כִּכַּר , "shesh meiot shishim vashes kikkar" count up to 666 (300+40+300+6+20), like if to say that you shouldn't take Solomon's yearly income literal.
    Seems a little arbitrary to include 'vessels' but not to include 'gold' just to get the sum to equal 666.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
    Seems kinda Bible Codey to me.


    Note Rashi's comment on Genesis 1:31 "yom hashishi", the sixth day:

    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

    the sixth day: Scripture added a “hey” on the sixth [day], at the completion of the Creation, to tell us that He stipulated with them, [“you were created] on the condition that Israel accept the Five Books of the Torah.” [The numerical value of the “hey” is five.] (Tanchuma Bereishith 1). Another explanation for “the sixth day” : They [the works of creation] were all suspended until the “sixth day,” referring to the sixth day of Sivan, which was prepared for the giving of the Torah (Shab. 88a). [The“hey” is the definite article, alluding to the well-known sixth day, the sixth day of Sivan, when the Torah was given (ad loc.).]
    Which means a.o. that if Israel will not accept ("kibbeil") the Five (books) creation will fall back to the state of "tohu vavohu" of Genesjs 1:2.

    "were all suspended until the “sixth day” says the same.

    suspended = תלוים ועומדים, "t'luim v'omdim" literal: hanging and standing = doubtful

    LXX has for "t'hom" of Genesis 1:2 ἄβυσσος = bottomless (pit), same mentioned in Revelation 20

    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that she might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.


    "Thousand" expresses oneness (Hebrew "elef", thousand, being the name of the letter "alef", first letter) I bet the oneness of the sixth and the seventh day in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim".

    "sealed it over him"

    cf. Baal Haturim on Genesis 1:31,

    Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 03-07-2014, 03:46 AM.

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  • RBerman
    replied
    Seems kinda Bible Codey to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
    I was unaware of the connection between the "white stone" of Revelation 2:17 and the courtroom exoneration metaphor, so thanks for calling that to my attention. As for the rest, I do not know what you are trying to say.
    Revelation 13:18 continues with "for it is the number of a man"

    Since Mark elaborates on the same thing (Jesus crucified on the sixth day and laid in the grave exactly at the beginning of the seventh, which was the first day of the omercount -- 7 x 7 days until the 50th day = the sixth day of Sivan)
    you can assume that the inscription of the coin. mentioned in Mark 12:16, “Whose image and inscription is this?” They said to him, “Caesar's.” , showed up the number 666.
    (Mark has the word ἐπιγραφή (inscription) return in 15:26, καὶ ἦν ἡ ἐπιγραφὴ τῆς αἰτίας αὐτοῦ ἐπιγεγραμμένη, Ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων. And the inscription of his guilt was written on it; The king of the Jews

    There seem to be no coins with inscription in Hebrew letters "kasar neron", although someone once contended such on T-web.

    So that calls for Domitian: http://socalcoins.blogspot.nl/2008/0...m-i-t-i-n.html

    Which would mean that also Mark is from after 70AD. (Best proof of course is Mark 13 -- don't stare blind on stones and buildings!)

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