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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת שִׁשִּׁים וָשֵׁשׁ כִּכַּר

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  • שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת שִׁשִּׁים וָשֵׁשׁ כִּכַּר

    1 Kings 10:14,
    The weight of gold which came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold.

    Remarkable is that the initials of שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת שִׁשִּׁים וָשֵׁשׁ כִּכַּר , "shesh meiot shishim vashes kikkar" count up to 666 (300+40+300+6+20), like if to say that you shouldn't take Solomon's yearly income literal.

    Though 2 Chronicles 9:13 has this different: שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת וְשִׁשִּׁים וָשֵׁשׁ כִּכְּרֵי , "shesh meiot v'shishim vashes kikkarei".

    But another thing came to mind,

    Genesis 26:12, And Isaac sowed in that land, and he found in that year a hundred fold, and the Lord blessed him.


    hundredfold = מֵאָה שְׁעָרִים , "meiah sh'arim", of which gematria is also 666 (40+1+5+300+70+200+300)

    Which was also kind of a yearly income, though just for one year, while Solomon seemingly received year by year 666 talents of gold.

    Which is weird of course. The number must denote something else. And for sure it doesn't point forward to "Kasar Neron".

    "Hundredfold" seems to be the clue of the parable of the sower, something Satan immediately did take away.

  • #2
    Revelation 13:18 invites those who have mind (understanding) to calculate the number of the beast.

    Calculate is Greek ψηφίζω = to count with pebbles.

    pebble = ψῆφος = 1) a small worn smooth stone, a pebble 1a) in the ancient courts of justice the accused were condemned by black pebbles and the acquitted by white 2) a vote (on account of the use of pebbles in voting)

    Revelation 2:17 promised a white pebblestone to the one who is victorious.

    Satan being the prosecutor (accuser) in the heavenly court of justice.

    After Mark 4:15 Satan immediately came to take away the word that, when fallen in the good earth, could have produced hundredfold.

    So that you might think that those who have mind (understanding) coincide those that were sown in the good earth.

    Revalation 17:9 says: "Here is the mind that has wisdom" -- you might think the mind that did already calculate the number of the beast. (since Revelation 13:18 said: "Here is the wisdom: let him that has mind (understanding) calculate the number of the beast")

    Comment


    • #3
      I was unaware of the connection between the "white stone" of Revelation 2:17 and the courtroom exoneration metaphor, so thanks for calling that to my attention. As for the rest, I do not know what you are trying to say.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RBerman View Post
        I was unaware of the connection between the "white stone" of Revelation 2:17 and the courtroom exoneration metaphor, so thanks for calling that to my attention. As for the rest, I do not know what you are trying to say.
        666 is numerical value of "yom shishi", (a)sixth day, while in Genesis 1:31 there is written "yom hashishi", the sixth day, by which the name of God is present in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", thus connecting (bringing under one yoke) the sixth day and the seventh.

        What I am trying to say is that the writer of Revelation had this in mind, when writing: "whoever has mind let him calculate the number of the beast".

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        • #5
          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
          I was unaware of the connection between the "white stone" of Revelation 2:17 and the courtroom exoneration metaphor, so thanks for calling that to my attention. As for the rest, I do not know what you are trying to say.
          Revelation 13:18 continues with "for it is the number of a man"

          Since Mark elaborates on the same thing (Jesus crucified on the sixth day and laid in the grave exactly at the beginning of the seventh, which was the first day of the omercount -- 7 x 7 days until the 50th day = the sixth day of Sivan)
          you can assume that the inscription of the coin. mentioned in Mark 12:16, “Whose image and inscription is this?” They said to him, “Caesar's.” , showed up the number 666.
          (Mark has the word ἐπιγραφή (inscription) return in 15:26, καὶ ἦν ἡ ἐπιγραφὴ τῆς αἰτίας αὐτοῦ ἐπιγεγραμμένη, Ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων. And the inscription of his guilt was written on it; The king of the Jews

          There seem to be no coins with inscription in Hebrew letters "kasar neron", although someone once contended such on T-web.

          So that calls for Domitian: http://socalcoins.blogspot.nl/2008/0...m-i-t-i-n.html

          Which would mean that also Mark is from after 70AD. (Best proof of course is Mark 13 -- don't stare blind on stones and buildings!)

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          • #6
            Seems kinda Bible Codey to me.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by RBerman View Post
              Seems kinda Bible Codey to me.


              Note Rashi's comment on Genesis 1:31 "yom hashishi", the sixth day:

              http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

              the sixth day: Scripture added a “hey” on the sixth [day], at the completion of the Creation, to tell us that He stipulated with them, [“you were created] on the condition that Israel accept the Five Books of the Torah.” [The numerical value of the “hey” is five.] (Tanchuma Bereishith 1). Another explanation for “the sixth day” : They [the works of creation] were all suspended until the “sixth day,” referring to the sixth day of Sivan, which was prepared for the giving of the Torah (Shab. 88a). [The“hey” is the definite article, alluding to the well-known sixth day, the sixth day of Sivan, when the Torah was given (ad loc.).]
              Which means a.o. that if Israel will not accept ("kibbeil") the Five (books) creation will fall back to the state of "tohu vavohu" of Genesjs 1:2.

              "were all suspended until the “sixth day” says the same.

              suspended = תלוים ועומדים, "t'luim v'omdim" literal: hanging and standing = doubtful

              LXX has for "t'hom" of Genesis 1:2 ἄβυσσος = bottomless (pit), same mentioned in Revelation 20

              Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that she might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.


              "Thousand" expresses oneness (Hebrew "elef", thousand, being the name of the letter "alef", first letter) I bet the oneness of the sixth and the seventh day in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim".

              "sealed it over him"

              cf. Baal Haturim on Genesis 1:31,

              Last edited by Geert van den Bos; 03-07-2014, 03:46 AM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                1 Kings 10:14,
                The weight of gold which came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold.

                Remarkable is that the initials of שֵׁשׁ מֵאוֹת שִׁשִּׁים וָשֵׁשׁ כִּכַּר , "shesh meiot shishim vashes kikkar" count up to 666 (300+40+300+6+20), like if to say that you shouldn't take Solomon's yearly income literal.
                Seems a little arbitrary to include 'vessels' but not to include 'gold' just to get the sum to equal 666.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  Seems a little arbitrary to include 'vessels' but not to include 'gold' just to get the sum to equal 666.
                  "talents"

                  Ok that's true , but anyhow without "zahav" the initials count up to 666.

                  The talent, "kikkar", seems to be determined by the Menora Moses was shown on the mountain, i.e. by the light.
                  Exodus 25:39-40, He shall make it of a talent of pure gold, with all these implements.Now see and make according to their pattern, which you are shown on the mountain

                  Rashi:
                  Now see and make: See here on the mountain the pattern that I am showing you. [This] informs us that Moses had difficulties with the construction of the menorah, until the Holy One, blessed is He, showed him a [model] menorah of fire. -[from Men. 29a]

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The gematria of "Yeshu Hanotsri" is 671, while gematria of "Yeshu Notsri" is 666.

                    John seems to play with this, also since verse 15 said: Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

                    John 19:19-20,
                    And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
                    This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.


                    Greek Ἰησοῦς Ναζωραῖος ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων.

                    Latin: Iesus Nazarenus rex Iudaeorum , abbreviated to the wellknown INRI on Roman crucifixes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                      Note Rashi's comment on Genesis 1:31 "yom hashishi", the sixth day:
                      Yup, definitely Bible Codey. Leave the Sudoku for the funny pages.

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                      • #12
                        Note that Revelation 13:18 doesn't say that the beast is a human being but that the number of the beast is the number of a man.

                        Beast = θηρίον, plural θηρία

                        LXX Genesis 1:25 , καὶ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὰ θηρία τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος καὶ τὰ κτήνη κατὰ γένος καὶ πάντα τὰ ἑρπετὰ τῆς γῆς κατὰ γένος αὐτῶν καὶ εἶδεν ὁ θεὸς ὅτι καλά

                        If man wouldn't have been created the first chapter of Genesis would have ended with this verse, only that should have been added: καὶ ἐγένετο ἑσπέρα καὶ ἐγένετο πρωί ἡμέρα ἕκτη , in HEbrew: "vay'hi erev vay'hi boker yom shishi"--

                        But since no man would have been there to write it up and no man to read it, it wouldn't have been written at all. Creation wouldn't have had any sense.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Revelation 13:18 begins with; "Here is the wisdom"

                          The principle of wisdom being the fear of Hashem / the Lord (after Psalms 111:10 and Proverbs 9:10).

                          Hashem is the Tetragrammaton hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashisihi vay'chulu hashamayim".

                          Which might make clear what the number of the beast is about.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                            The gematria of "Yeshu Hanotsri" is 671, while gematria of "Yeshu Notsri" is 666.

                            John seems to play with this, also since verse 15 said: Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

                            John 19:19-20,
                            And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
                            This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.


                            Greek Ἰησοῦς Ναζωραῖος ὁ βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἰουδαίων.

                            Latin: Iesus Nazarenus rex Iudaeorum , abbreviated to the wellknown INRI on Roman crucifixes.
                            I must be missing something because I'm not sure how verse 15 relates to what you are saying.

                            With respect to verse 19, you seem to be imagining that John was thinking in Hebrew while writing Greek, more specifically that he was thinking notsri instead of hanotsri or natsrat, even 'though he does use the definite article in Greek.

                            How do you know that John was thinking something different than what he wrote?

                            Maybe John would say to you: ὃ γέγραφα, γέγραφα.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                            • #15
                              so codex gimma 3 ex 4 times esocook all adds to 666 right?
                              A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                              George Bernard Shaw

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