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Did Moses write the Torah?

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  • Did Moses write the Torah?

    Source: Reasons to Believe

    The notion that Moses actually lived and wrote the first five books of the Bible has long been rejected in academic circles and is now being increasingly questioned among conservative Old Testament (OT) scholars. However, since Mosaic authorship is the traditional view of the church, it would be unwise for Bible believers to reject Moses’s involvement in the production of the Torah (or Pentateuch, the first five books). Indeed, while the Torah probably did not come into its final form until the sixth century BC, there are at least five good lines of internal evidence suggesting that Moses (thought to have lived around the fifteenth century BC) authored the Torah.

    (Parts 1 and 2 here and here)

    © Copyright Original Source



    They then give five reasons to subscribe to Mosaic authorship of the Torah, for example:

    Source: Reasons to Believe

    Lot lifted up his eyes and saw all the valley of the Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere—this was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah—like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt as you go to Zoar. (Genesis 13:10, NASB)

    This passage implies that its author and his readers/hearers knew what Egypt was like, but were not very familiar with Palestine. It is difficult to see how or why a tenth century BC (or later) author, living in Palestine and writing to an audience born and raised in the land of Israel, would want to express himself in this way. However, this text makes sense if Moses wrote to a primarily Egyptian-born audience. In this connection, the author of Genesis tells his readers about “the city of Shechem in Canaan” (Genesis 33:18). Why would a postexilic (after 538 BC) writer, or even a writer living in tenth century (BC) Palestine, feel the need to explain what Shechem—one of the most prominent cities north of Jerusalem—was?

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  • #2
    That sorta narrows it down to about 603,550 possibilities. (Numbers 1:44-46)
    When I Survey....

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Faber View Post
      That sorta narrows it down to about 603,550 possibilities. (Numbers 1:44-46)
      Well, the fifth reason is that there is evidence that Moses, not someone else, wrote the Torah.

      Source: Reasons to Believe

      The Pentateuch itself, at least implicitly, tells us that Moses wrote the entire Torah. Quite a few passages within the Torah list Moses as their author. For example, we are told that Moses “wrote down all the words of YHWH” (Exodus 24:4). Then we see that Moses took “The Book of the Covenant” and read it to the people of Israel (Exodus 24:7).

      Source

      © Copyright Original Source



      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #4
        Maybe he did. Or at least a major part of it. Maybe Moses was extensively quoted by somebody else. Maybe Joshua. But I definitely would hesitate to say that Moses wrote his own obituary.
        When I Survey....

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Faber View Post
          But I definitely would hesitate to say that Moses wrote his own obituary.
          Probably not! And (as they say) it does seem to have been edited to bring the grammar up-to-date, except for the poetry.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Source: Reasons to Believe

            The notion that Moses actually lived and wrote the first five books of the Bible has long been rejected in academic circles and is now being increasingly questioned among conservative Old Testament (OT) scholars. However, since Mosaic authorship is the traditional view of the church, it would be unwise for Bible believers to reject Moses’s involvement in the production of the Torah (or Pentateuch, the first five books). Indeed, while the Torah probably did not come into its final form until the sixth century BC, there are at least five good lines of internal evidence suggesting that Moses (thought to have lived around the fifteenth century BC) authored the Torah.

            (Parts 1 and 2 here and here)

            © Copyright Original Source



            They then give five reasons to subscribe to Mosaic authorship of the Torah, for example:

            Source: Reasons to Believe

            Lot lifted up his eyes and saw all the valley of the Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere—this was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah—like the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt as you go to Zoar. (Genesis 13:10, NASB)

            This passage implies that its author and his readers/hearers knew what Egypt was like, but were not very familiar with Palestine. It is difficult to see how or why a tenth century BC (or later) author, living in Palestine and writing to an audience born and raised in the land of Israel, would want to express himself in this way. However, this text makes sense if Moses wrote to a primarily Egyptian-born audience. In this connection, the author of Genesis tells his readers about “the city of Shechem in Canaan” (Genesis 33:18). Why would a postexilic (after 538 BC) writer, or even a writer living in tenth century (BC) Palestine, feel the need to explain what Shechem—one of the most prominent cities north of Jerusalem—was?

            © Copyright Original Source



            Blessings,
            Lee
            It is my belief that some but not all of the Torah was written by Moses.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JacobMartinMertens View Post

              It is my belief that some but not all of the Torah was written by Moses.
              Nobody argues that Deuteronomy 34:7-8 was penned by him.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Nobody argues that Deuteronomy 34:7-8 was penned by him.
                I think you are saying that you believe that Moses wrote that.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JacobMartinMertens View Post

                  I think you are saying that you believe that Moses wrote that.
                  Nobody argues that, including myself.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Nobody argues that, including myself.
                    Either Moses wrote it or someone else did.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Looking at verse 11, "Since that time, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face...", I would think that at least that portion, along with the obituary of Moses, was probably written a substantial amount of time after the death of Moses.
                      When I Survey....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        Probably not! And (as they say) it does seem to have been edited to bring the grammar up-to-date, except for the poetry.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        More than just the grammar. Place names that had changed were usually updated without notice, and evidence suggests that the name "YHVH" is retroactively introduced in texts where it was originally something else; probably El. Most of that would have happened with the introduction of the scriptures written in Hebrew; in place of the Paleo-Hebrew. Post exilic copies, the early versions retaining the name of YHVH in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JacobMartinMertens View Post

                          Either Moses wrote it or someone else did.
                          That would be the only choices.

                          Given it describes Moses' death and funeral, it is highly unlikely Moses himself wrote it.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            More than just the grammar. Place names that had changed were usually updated without notice,
                            Yeah, there are signs that a later editor (perhaps Ezra) made some updates for audience comprehension.
                            and evidence suggests that the name "YHVH" is retroactively introduced in texts where it was originally something else; probably El.
                            This looks suspiciously like an attempt to rescue the JEPD hypothesis from contrary evidence.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              Yeah, there are signs that a later editor (perhaps Ezra) made some updates for audience comprehension.

                              This looks suspiciously like an attempt to rescue the JEPD hypothesis from contrary evidence.
                              The JEPD hypothesis is farcical, or at least, the material claimed to be evidence for the hypothesis is farcical, anyway.

                              The name of YHVH in Genesis is probably an editorial redaction made at the time the scriptures were transcribed to the Hebrew script. That does not relate to multiple authors, but to an editorial decision to make the text more understandable to the then contemporary audience, as with the place names.

                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              @JacobMartinMertens
                              Either Moses wrote it or someone else did.

                              That would be the only choices.
                              You haven't properly explored the option of 10,000 monkeys. mudlark baby.jpg

                              Last edited by tabibito; 10-06-2023, 11:31 AM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment

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