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Revelation 22:18

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    ... It doesn't have to be "derived from the Greek."
    My brother, Obsidian, since you have explained this comment in terms of my lack of willingness to understand the truth and not a lack of interest on your part in understanding the Greek text before us, I will proceed with an explanation of the Greek as I read it, but I am always open to correction or other ideas from those who can make a good case for reading the Greek more faithfully.

    You would like to understand Rev 22,17-18 in the following way:
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    But I am postulating that everyone who wants can come drink from the water of life for free, and that if anyone tries to add any conditions to make it not free, then God will send plagues.
    So let’s look at how this might work first in the King James’ English and then in the Greek, which I will try to interpret to the best of my ability (despite my unwillingness to understand the truth).

    17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.
    And let him that heareth say, Come.
    And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
    If any man shall add (any conditions) unto these things (ie, the water of life, which render it less free),
    God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
    God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Καὶ τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ ἡ νύμφη λέγουσιν, ἔρχου.
    καὶ ὁ ἀκούων εἰπάτω, ἔρχου.
    καὶ ὁ διψῶν ἐρχέσθω, ὁ θέλων λαβέτω ὕδωρ ζωῆς δωρεάν.

    Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου,
    ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπ᾽ αὐτά,
    ἐπιθήσει ὁ θεὸς ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ,

    καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης,
    ἀφελεῖ ὁ θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ.


    The first difficulty with Obsidian’s interpretation is that it takes ‘unto these things’ (ἐπ᾽ αὐτά) as referring to ‘water of life freely’ (ὕδωρ ζωῆς δωρεάν), but that is not possible in Greek because αὐτά is plural and therefore does not refer back to ὕδωρ ζωῆς, which is singular.

    So to what does αὐτά refer? Following the Latin, Wycliffe, Tyndale, and King James (all directly or indirectly at least partly dependent upon the Latin) translated this word well as a demonstrative pronoun, ‘these things’, while more modern English versions more mechanically translate it as a personal pronoun, ‘them’. It is true that the αὐτά is indeed technically, mechanically a personal pronoun, but it is also true that in Greek the personal pronoun can carry the force of a demonstrative pronoun, as it does here. I’ll explain why subsequently. The real problem with the English is that since ‘them’ can be either masculine, feminine, both, or neuter, and since ‘these things’ is neuter in English, it will be assumed by most readers to refer back to ‘the words of the prophecy of this book’, and ‘the words’ like all other common nouns in English is neither masculine nor feminine and therefore most people just think of ‘words’ as neuter.

    The earlier Latin fostered this misunderstanding because ‘verba’ is neuter plural and ‘haec’ can be a neuter plural accusative (it can also be feminine singular nominative neuter plural nominative):

    contestor ego omni audienti verba prophetiae libri huius si quis adposuerit ad haec adponet Deus super illum plagas scriptas in libro isto

    Martin Luther’s German, by the way, is no better: dazu.

    So, getting back to the Greek, what does the neuter plural accusative αὐτά refer to and why should we attribute to it a demonstrative sense?

    Noting the importance of context, αὐτά in the Greek clearly refers back to ταῦτα (these things) in Rev 22,8bis.16. See also ταῦτα in 22.20. All are neuter plural accusative pronouns. ταῦτα is a demonstrative pronoun and αὐτά easily takes on the added force of a demonstrative, giving emphatic prominence, especially when used in summary fashion (cf Thayer) to ‘all’ these things written about and signified in the prophecy of this book.

    Κἀγὼ Ἰωάννης ὁ ἀκούων καὶ βλέπων ταῦτα. καὶ ὅτε ἤκουσα καὶ ἔβλεψα, ἔπεσα προσκυνῆσαι ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ποδῶν τοῦ ἀγγέλου τοῦ δεικνύοντός μοι ταῦτα.
    I, John, (am) the one hearing and seeing these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing me these things.

    Ἐγὼ Ἰησοῦς ἔπεμψα τὸν ἄγγελόν μου μαρτυρῆσαι ὑμῖν ταῦτα ἐπὶ ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις.
    I, Jesus, sent my angel to you to witness to you concerning these things to the churches.
    - Note the reference back to the first part of the book

    Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα, ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. Ἀμήν, ἔρχου κύριε Ἰησοῦ.
    The one testifying concerning these things says, Yes, I am coming quickly. Amen, come, Lord Jesus.

    The sense is that these things prophecied in the book of Revelation are real. If you try to add to them, they will bite you. God will send down the plagues on you. These are not the type of things that one should change. It is sort of like a prophetic threat.

    But the normal English is not so bad because it is practically implied by the parallelism between 22,18 and 19:

    …. ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ . ἐπ᾽ αὐτά,
    καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης


    If any man shall add ................. unto these things
    And if any man shall take away... from the .. words of the book of this prophecy

    ‘These things’, although neuter in Greek, are indeed placed parallel with ‘the (masculine) words of the book of this prophecy’. Why place these things in parallel if ‘these things’ cannot refer directly to ‘the words’. Because the words of prophecy are as real as the things prophesied. Do not add to these things and do not subtract from the prophetic words. Obviously, a scribe should not add to these things as written in the book or take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, but the prophetic threat is more all-encompassing than just an admonition regarding scribal practice. The person speaking in 22,18 could be John, or it could be the angel witnessing to these things. Take another look at 22,8.16 (above): John is the one hearing these things and the angel is one witnessing to these things. Likewise in 22,18 John may be thought of as one of every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this book dictated by the angel. But it is also quite possible that Jesus is the one speaking in 22,18. It is not always clear whether or when Jesus, the angel, or John is speaking. John is a prophet (22,9); he speaks for God, the words he hears from the angel, who seems also to appear as Jesus. Such is the authority of this book. Don’t add to it, don’t take away from it.
    Last edited by robrecht; 02-28-2014, 07:35 AM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #32
      You might ask what is meant by "the water of life".

      Revelation 21:6 says that it comes from a source, "pègè", and that the "I" who is the Alpha and the Omega, the principle and the purpose, will give to the one who is thirsty
      from this source for free.
      Revelation 22:1 mentions a river of water of life that goes forth from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

      "Pègè", πηγὴ, is also mentioned in John 4:14,

      but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
      ὃς δ' ἂν πίῃ ἐκ τοῦ ὕδατος οὗ ἐγὼ δώσω αὐτῷ, οὐ μὴ διψήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ τὸ ὕδωρ ὃ δώσω αὐτῷ γενήσεται ἐν αὐτῷ πηγὴ ὕδατος ἁλλομένου εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

      I am convinced that it refers to Genesis 2:6, and a mist went up from the earth and watered (gave to drink) the whole face of the ground

      LXX has: πηγὴ δὲ ἀνέβαινεν ἐκ τῆς γῆς καὶ ἐπότιζεν πᾶν τὸ πρόσωπον τῆς γῆς

      i.e. "the source" the writer of Revelation has in mind is the "mist" of Genesis 2:6, Hebrew "ed", אֵד.

      The "eyeopener" in the book of Revelation being the number 666 as gematria of "yom shishi", sixth day, where is written in Genesis 1:31 "yom hashishi", the sixth day, with which the name of God, the Tetragrammaton, appears to be present hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", the last two words of Genesis 1 and the first two words of Genesis 2 (the name of God further being absent in teh first story of creation).
      The letter "hey", that makes the difference between "yom shishi" and "yom hashishi" has the value of 5 ("hey" is the fifth letter), which again is gematria of "ed" (1+4).

      Revelation 22:1 is after Ezekiel 47, 1Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east)
      (...)3 Going on eastward with a measuring line in his hand, the man measured a thousand cubits, and then led me through the water, and it was[B] ankle-deep. 4 Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was knee-deep. Again he measured a thousand, and led me through the water, and it was waist-deep. 5 Again he measured a thousand, and it was a river that I could not pass through, for the water had risen. It was deep enough to swim in, a river that could not be passed through
      indicating the 1-4 principle "1" is the head, "4" are the four parts of the body, the torso, the thighs, the legs, the feet.

      I.e. the river has the properties of the source, it is the flowing source.
      The throne of God and of the lamb being the place Genesis 1:31 - 2:1, entrance of sabbath.

      cf. Revelation 13: 5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,[a] that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them.[b] And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear:

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
        The "eyeopener" in the book of Revelation being the number 666 as gematria of "yom shishi", sixth day, where is written in Genesis 1:31 "yom hashishi", the sixth day ...
        I know I'm going to regret this.

        י֥וֹם הַשִּׁשִּֽׁי


        He = 5
        Vav = 6
        Yod 10 x 2 = 20
        Mem = 40
        Shin = 300 x 2 = 600

        Total = 671 not 666

        Disclaimer: Only in very rare instances, when the author of a book is consciously using gematria, does it have any value for understanding the intended meaning of the author. The scriptures are not magical texts.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          I know I'm going to regret this.

          י֥וֹם הַשִּׁשִּֽׁי


          He = 5
          Vav = 6
          Yod 10 x 2 = 20
          Mem = 40
          Shin = 300 x 2 = 600

          Total = 671 not 666

          Disclaimer: Only in very rare instances, when the author of a book is consciously using gematria, does it have any value for understanding the intended meaning of the author. The scriptures are not magical texts.
          Rashi:

          http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
          the sixth day: Scripture added a “hey” on the sixth [day], at the completion of the Creation, to tell us that (...)

          The other day-indications are written without "hey" : "yom echad, yom sh'ni, yom sh'loshi, yom r'vii, yom chamishi".

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
            Rashi:

            http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true



            The other day-indications are written without "hey" : "yom echad, yom sh'ni, yom sh'loshi, yom r'vii, yom chamishi".
            So you disagree with Rashi that the he is there for a reason? Once you start going down the road of adding or removing letters and using alternative spellings you can pretty much make the text say whatever you want it to say. To illustrate this point, in a lecture on the book of Revelation, I once 'proved' by
            creative gematria, that 666 symbolized the value of 'Vice President Dan Quayle' when his name and title were written in Hebrew. I know you like Rashi--do you disregard his view of the importance of the plain meaning of Scripture, a view that eventually came to be valued by the Protestant reformers?
            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
              The other day-indications are written without "hey" : "yom echad, yom sh'ni, yom sh'loshi, yom r'vii, yom chamishi".
              How can you leave out the Sabbath (which also has the he)? Shame on you!
              Last edited by robrecht; 02-28-2014, 10:07 AM.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                So you disagree with Rashi that the he is there for a reason?
                No.

                Rashi:
                http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
                Another explanation for “the sixth day” : They [the works of creation] were all suspended until the “sixth day,” referring to the sixth day of Sivan, which was prepared for the giving of the Torah (Shab. 88a). [The“hey” is the definite article, alluding to the well-known sixth day, the sixth day of Sivan, when the Torah was given (ad loc.).]
                The same notion underlies the synoptic Gospels.

                Jesus was laid in the grave on the sixth day, exactly at the beginning of the seventh (= sabbath) which was the first day of the omer count (second day of pesach), counting of 7 x 7 days until the 50th day = Pentecost = the sixth day of Sivan, i.e. the day on which God made his name, (the Tetragrammaton hidden in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vaychulu hashamayim"), known: "I am the Lord your God, etc."

                If you don't want to understand then do not understand.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post


                  The first difficulty with Obsidian’s interpretation is that it takes ‘unto these things’ (ἐπ᾽ αὐτά) as referring to ‘water of life freely’ (ὕδωρ ζωῆς δωρεάν), but that is not possible in Greek because αὐτά is plural and therefore does not refer back to ὕδωρ ζωῆς, which is singular.

                  .
                  cf, Revelation 21:6-7,

                  καὶ εἶπέν μοι, Γέγοναν. ἐγώ [εἰμι] τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ *)=ω, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος. ἐγὼ τῷ διψῶντι δώσω ἐκ τῆς πηγῆς τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς δωρεάν. ὁ νικῶν κληρονομήσει ταῦτα, καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ θεὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι υἱός.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                    cf, Revelation 21:6-7,

                    καὶ εἶπέν μοι, Γέγοναν. ἐγώ [εἰμι] τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ *)=ω, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος. ἐγὼ τῷ διψῶντι δώσω ἐκ τῆς πηγῆς τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς δωρεάν. ὁ νικῶν κληρονομήσει ταῦτα, καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ θεὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι υἱός.
                    You apparently assume that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") is τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς ("the water of life").

                    However, G. K. Beale in his NIGTC commentary on Revelation (Eerdmans, 1999) backs me up when I say that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") in 21:7 is all the multiple promises listed in 21:1-6. From his comment on 21:7:
                    .... The promises to the overcomer in the letters in chapters 2-3 all referred to the salvific blessing of the communion of God, which provides all the essentials of life (security, home, power, food, clothing, and a name), and therefore must apply to all believers, who are all included in the household of God. "One basic promise is conveyed in multiple images, since all of them illustrate the principle 'where I am, there will the victor be'" (cf. 21:3, 7; 22:3-4). Rev. 21:7 makes the same point by summarizing the reception of the multiple promises in 21:1-6 by saying, "the one who overcomes will inherit these things. So also Swete, Apocalypse, 281. ....
                    Last edited by John Reece; 02-28-2014, 11:31 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                      If you don't want to understand then do not understand.
                      Of course, I absolutely do want to understand, hence my questions to you. As the author of the text, you can best explain your intended meaning.
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                        You apparently assume that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") is τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς ("the water of life").

                        However, G. K. Beale in his NIGTC commentary on Revelation (Eerdmans, 1999) backs me up when I say that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") in 21:7 is all the multiple promises listed in 21:1-6. From his comment on 21:7:
                        .... The promises to the overcomer in the letters in chapters 2-3 all referred to the salvific blessing of the communion of God, which provides all the essentials of life (security, home, power, food, clothing, and a name), and therefore must apply to all believers, who are all included in the household of God. "One basic promise is conveyed in multiple images, since all of them illustrate the principle 'where I am, there will the victor be'" (cf. 21:3, 7; 22:3-4). Rev. 21:7 makes the same point by summarizing the reception of the multiple promises in 21:1-6 by saying, "the one who overcomes will inherit these things. So also Swete, Apocalypse, 281. ....
                        Thanks, John. It is always nice to see that my reading of the text is in agreement with the scholars you cite.

                        I think καινα ... παντα (kaina ... panta) in 21,5 are especially important with respect to understang the above.
                        Last edited by robrecht; 02-28-2014, 12:31 PM.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                          You apparently assume that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") is τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς ("the water of life").

                          However, G. K. Beale in his NIGTC commentary on Revelation (Eerdmans, 1999) backs me up when I say that the antecedent of ταῦτα ("these things") in 21:7 is all the multiple promises listed in 21:1-6. From his comment on 21:7:
                          .... The promises to the overcomer in the letters in chapters 2-3 all referred to the salvific blessing of the communion of God, which provides all the essentials of life (security, home, power, food, clothing, and a name), and therefore must apply to all believers, who are all included in the household of God. "One basic promise is conveyed in multiple images, since all of them illustrate the principle 'where I am, there will the victor be'" (cf. 21:3, 7; 22:3-4). Rev. 21:7 makes the same point by summarizing the reception of the multiple promises in 21:1-6 by saying, "the one who overcomes will inherit these things. So also Swete, Apocalypse, 281. ....
                          It seems to me that "tauta" refers to "panta" of v.5, but also that "all things made new" inhere the fountain of the water of life.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            Thanks, John. It is always nice to see that my reading of the text is in agreement with the scholars you cite.

                            I think καινα ... παντα (kaina ... panta) in 21,5 are especially important with respect to understanding the above.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                              It seems to me that "tauta" refers to "panta" of v.5, but also that "all things made new" inhere the fountain of the water of life.
                              Great! Nice to see that we agree on this point.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                For what it's worth, I think that Jesus was buried on a Thursday. Currently, I think that 666 refers either to money (as in 2 Chronicles 9:13) or to Nero Caesar. But I am still working on that. And anyway, I can't figure out how either of those topics actually relates to this thread. Finally, the idea of linking the mist in Genesis to the river in Revelation does at least relate to our topic. However, the linkage seems dubious to me, because there is a great difference between mist versus a river.

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