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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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Blessed Are the Meek

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  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Hi, Porker, I mean Poker. A while back I was going to post something in response to your idea here, but I wanted to wait and see where John was going. And I am glad I waited as John's approach to the meekness of Moses is so very profound and the thread has a beauty and power all its own.

    But, nonetheless, your Clydesdale example reminds me of the fact that the Greek word used here for meek, both as a noun and as a verb, is frequently used to speak of the taming of an animal. Xenophon uses it specifically of military horses that have been rigorously trained as a group for hunting and battle. Thus animals, when trained well, may seem docile enough at times, but they are by no means weak and retiring. It is still an animal with a raw wild power somewhere below the surface that is being directed for a specific purpose, even a violent purpose.
    I'm glad I waited for that!

    Leave a comment:


  • robrecht
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    The illustration I've heard - odd though it might be - comes from a demonstration on both the strength and agility of a Clydesdale horse. I think there's a video on youtube somewhere of this huge Clydesdale putting it's hoof down on an egg, rolling the egg, but not breaking it. "power under control". I've often wondered if that can actually be supported by the language.
    Hi, Porker, I mean Poker. A while back I was going to post something in response to your idea here, but I wanted to wait and see where John was going. And I am glad I waited as John's approach to the meekness of Moses is so very profound and the thread has a beauty and power all its own.

    But, nonetheless, your Clydesdale example reminds me of the fact that the Greek word used here for meek, both as a noun and as a verb, is frequently used to speak of the taming of an animal. Xenophon uses it specifically of military horses that have been rigorously trained as a group for hunting and battle. Thus animals, when trained well, may seem docile enough at times, but they are by no means weak and retiring. It is still an animal with a raw wild power somewhere below the surface that is being directed for a specific purpose, even a violent purpose.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Moderator's notice:

    John Reece requested no cabala-type posting in this thread. Please refrain from any further posts of this nature, and remember that this is a non-debate thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geert van den Bos
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    The Greek word rendered "meek" in the relevant texts (LXX and NT) in this thread is πραϋς (praus), which in the LXX is used for עָנָו (ʿānāw) in Numbers 12:3 and Psalm 37:11.

    Here is the entry for עָנָו (ʿānāw) in William A. Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of The Old Testament (E. J. Brill and Eerdmans, 1971):
    עָנָו (ʿānāw): ... (one who understands himself to be) low, humble, gentle (before God): Numbers 12:3, often in Psalms.

    The Bible presents two persons as models of what it means to be "meek" in the biblical sense: one in the OT and one in the NT.
    Numbers 12:3 (ESV): Now the man Moses was very meek [Hebrew עָנָו (ʿānāw); Greek πραϋς (praus)], more than all people who were on the face of the earth.

    Matthew 11:29 (KJV): Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek [πραϋς (praus)] and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

    When I consider the lives of Moses and Jesus, it seems to me that what they had in common that is expressed in the word πραϋς (praus) is that they were both sold out to God to do his will.

    The meekness of Moses is said to find expression in "vayikra" (the first word of the book Leviticus), which in Torah-scrolls is written with a dimished letter "alef", intimating that Moses wanted to write "vayikkar", by thus saying that it all just came to him in a wet dream (nocturnal pollution).

    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
    The expression וַיִּקָּר has the meaning of a coincidental happening, and also alludes to impurity. [See Deut. 23:11, regarding the expression מִקְרֵה לַיְלָה.]
    Where it says that Moses was very meek (more so than any person on the face of the earth) it follows Miriam's and Aaron's accusation that he had married (had slept with) a Cushite woman.

    Might this have a parallel in Luke 7:39?

    “If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner.”

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Blessed Are the Meek

    The Greek word rendered "meek" in the relevant texts (LXX and NT) in this thread is πραϋς (praus), which in the LXX is used for עָנָו (ʿānāw) in Numbers 12:3 and Psalm 37:11.

    Here is the entry for עָנָו (ʿānāw) in William A. Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of The Old Testament (E. J. Brill and Eerdmans, 1971):
    עָנָו (ʿānāw): ... (one who understands himself to be) low, humble, gentle (before God): Numbers 12:3, often in Psalms.

    The Bible presents two persons as models of what it means to be "meek" in the biblical sense: one in the OT and one in the NT.
    Numbers 12:3 (ESV): Now the man Moses was very meek [Hebrew עָנָו (ʿānāw); Greek πραϋς (praus)], more than all people who were on the face of the earth.

    Matthew 11:29 (KJV): Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek [πραϋς (praus)] and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

    When I consider the lives of Moses and Jesus, it seems to me that what they had in common that is expressed in the word πραϋς (praus) is that they were both sold out to God to do his will.
    Last edited by John Reece; 02-25-2014, 01:09 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    The Meek

    The Greek word rendered "meek" in the relevant texts (LXX and NT) in this thread is πραϋς (praus), which in the LXX is used for עָנָו (ʿānāw) in Numbers 12:3 and Psalm 37:11.

    Here is the entry for עָנָו (ʿānāw) in William A. Holladay's A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of The Old Testament (E. J. Brill and Eerdmans, 1971):
    עָנָו (ʿānāw): ... (one who understands himself to be) low, humble, gentle (before God): Numbers 12:3, often in Psalms.

    More later...

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    Given how extensively James quotes from the Sermon on the Mount, I think this should also be relevant:
    Interesting point. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paprika
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    Yes; that's a key factor in my exegesis.
    Given how extensively James quotes from the Sermon on the Mount, I think this should also be relevant:
    has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him?

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
    Wasn't Moses described as the meekest man alive in his day?
    Yes; that's a key factor in my exegesis.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by John Reece View Post
    I will have more to say after a much needed night's rest.
    Thanks. Sleep well, my friend.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Reece
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    John.... I had a friend who was a really big powerful man - he was a Lt. Commander in the Navy, and we in the process of going into the Navy Chaplaincy. He had a big booming voice, but was an absolute perfect gentleman. He liked to describe "meek" as "power under control. He emphasized it was not "the weak" or the "timid", but, as I said, "power under control".

    How does that strike you? Is that allowed in the language?
    Excellent way of expressing what is quite definitely allowed in the language.

    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    The illustration I've heard - odd though it might be - comes from a demonstration on both the strength and agility of a Clydesdale horse. I think there's a video on youtube somewhere of this huge Clydesdale putting it's hoof down on an egg, rolling the egg, but not breaking it. "power under control". I've often wondered if that can actually be supported by the language.
    Yes, it can be supported not only in the language, but also in the context of the biblical narratives.

    I will have more to say after a much needed night's rest ― if a real scholar does not beat me to it twixt now and then.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zymologist
    replied
    Wasn't Moses described as the meekest man alive in his day?

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    The illustration I've heard - odd though it might be - comes from a demonstration on both the strength and agility of a Clydesdale horse. I think there's a video on youtube somewhere of this huge Clydesdale putting it's hoof down on an egg, rolling the egg, but not breaking it. "power under control". I've often wondered if that can actually be supported by the language.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    I agree. It would be like if someone didn't fight back not because they were a wimp, but the provocateur wasn't worth it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    John.... I had a friend who was a really big powerful man - he was a Lt. Commander in the Navy, and we in the process of going into the Navy Chaplaincy. He had a big booming voice, but was an absolute perfect gentleman. He liked to describe "meek" as "power under control. He emphasized it was not "the weak" or the "timid", but, as I said, "power under control".

    How does that strike you? Is that allowed in the language?

    Leave a comment:

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