Announcement

Collapse

Amphitheater Guidelines

In the Amphitheater we sit back and share a good song, offer a movie review, discuss sports, or anything in entertainment and family enjoyment.

If you need to refresh yourself on the decorum, now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: here
Steam Group: here

Thanks!
See more
See less

Anime and Japanese History Derail Thread

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Anime and Japanese History Derail Thread

    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    *Oh yeah, I forgot about how she is constantly putting men down, and even got into a huge rant about how men have "ruined" an anime genre called isekai that was "traditionally female". There are bad isekai out there aimed at men, but the genre has its roots in a Japanese folk tale with a male as the lead, and has been an even mix of target audience since it was adopted into anime.
    What was her rationale for isekai being traditionally female? That seems highly dubious to me.

    Now, if the complaint is how the isekai genre has become annoyingly dominated by series that are basically "male wish fulfillment" that would be a valid point. Way too many isekai nowadays are just "a guy gets transported to a fantasy world somehow, turns out to have some crazy skill that makes him the best ever, and gets a whole lot of really cute love interests" (more recently, a number skip the "transported to a fantasy world" and just have the entire series take place in an alternate fantasy world, and the main characters gets some crazy skill that then leads to basically the same situation--or have them transport themselves into the future where magic has degraded and therefore they're the best and get all the cute girls). However, that's a different complaint than guys taking over something that was supposedly traditionally female. I don't think it was ever traditionally female, it just wasn't as overrun by the dumb power fantasies we see nowadays.

    For context for those who don't follow anime, "isekai" means "another world" in Japanese and is a term for the genre of someone getting warped to an alternate world, often a fantasy one. It's gotten very popular in recent years in anime.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
    What was her rationale for isekai being traditionally female? That seems highly dubious to me.

    Now, if the complaint is how the isekai genre has become annoyingly dominated by series that are basically "male wish fulfillment" that would be a valid point. Way too many isekai nowadays are just "a guy gets transported to a fantasy world somehow, turns out to have some crazy skill that makes him the best ever, and gets a whole lot of really cute love interests" (more recently, a number skip the "transported to a fantasy world" and just have the entire series take place in an alternate fantasy world, and the main characters gets some crazy skill that then leads to basically the same situation--or have them transport themselves into the future where magic has degraded and therefore they're the best and get all the cute girls). However, that's a different complaint than guys taking over something that was supposedly traditionally female. I don't think it was ever traditionally female, it just wasn't as overrun by the dumb power fantasies we see nowadays.

    For context for those who don't follow anime, "isekai" means "another world" in Japanese and is a term for the genre of someone getting warped to an alternate world, often a fantasy one. It's gotten very popular in recent years in anime.
    Yup - Even Inuyasha comes under the heading of "i・sekai." It doesn't matter what genre the anime covers, the better examples are way outnumbered by the ordinary, and the artform does have a stronger male following than female. Sadly, the better stories and stronger characters usually feature in the anime that targets teen girls.
    Last edited by tabibito; 01-15-2023, 10:19 PM.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
      What was her rationale for isekai being traditionally female? That seems highly dubious to me.
      It is highly dubious, which is why I looked into it after the claim was made. What her reasoning was is that the early Isekai were all about female empowerment in societies where women had no power(she buys into oppression hierarch while saying hierarchies are bad). Even the most trivial amount of research proves this false. The earliest Japanese example of the genre is an old folk tale Urashima Tarō. For more recent, but still early Japanese Isekai we have Warrior from Another World, Superbook*, and Super Mario Bros. . Looking at the rest of the early Isekai shows that there has been a good balance between male oriented, female oriented, and in several of them are mixes of both male and female protagonists(like Digimon Adventure).

      I think she likely read an article arguing that Isekai has been traditionally female somewhere, and took the pronouncements at face value. Kind of like one time where she started talking about anime hair colors and their meanings. I looked it up and found what she was saying verbatim. Many of those descriptions of personalities related to hair color read more like horoscopes than actual trends within the characters themselves.

      Now, if the complaint is how the isekai genre has become annoyingly dominated by series that are basically "male wish fulfillment" that would be a valid point. Way too many isekai nowadays are just "a guy gets transported to a fantasy world somehow, turns out to have some crazy skill that makes him the best ever, and gets a whole lot of really cute love interests" (more recently, a number skip the "transported to a fantasy world" and just have the entire series take place in an alternate fantasy world, and the main characters gets some crazy skill that then leads to basically the same situation--or have them transport themselves into the future where magic has degraded and therefore they're the best and get all the cute girls). However, that's a different complaint than guys taking over something that was supposedly traditionally female. I don't think it was ever traditionally female, it just wasn't as overrun by the dumb power fantasies we see nowadays.
      Yes, the "it's devolved to just male wish fulfillment' argument is understandable, and to an extent I agree with her on that point. It was the second part of her rant. Sword Art Online leans very far in that direction, much further than I would like**. What little I did get to read of the manga at least had an interesting world. And a video game based on a later season was similar to the parts of the manga I read. The knockoffs of Sword Art Online seem to focus on only the wish fulfillment aspect and less on anything else. However you also get stuff like That Time I got Reincarnated as a Slime that both toys with the concept of wish fulfillment while also subverting expectations regarding it. Rimuro is placed in a world that takes into account his dying wishes, but he ends up as a slime when he gets there. The wishes granted are also rather Monkey Paw like. The stuff he would really want is always just out of reach.

      There has been a surge in demonization of men in countries that have been Westernized and this has trickled down to more women hating men, and more men hating themselves. Just look how desperate the men in Japan are for a girlfriend right now. I still struggle with self hatred issues and that kind of demonization wasn't near as rampant in the mainstream than it is now. Although I was exposed to that kind of attitude at lot more in person since I grew up in close proximity to a lot of female supremacist types.

      For context for those who don't follow anime, "isekai" means "another world" in Japanese and is a term for the genre of someone getting warped to an alternate world, often a fantasy one. It's gotten very popular in recent years in anime.
      The basic idea of the genre has been popular in fiction all over the world and for a very long time. Dante's Divine Comedy is sometimes cited, Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, The Chronicles of Narnia, and much much more would fit into the genre.

      *She's probably hate this one since it is Christian. She really hates Christianity, and thinks that everything about Christianity was just stolen from pagan religions.

      **The first few chapters of the manga, and what little I played of one of the video games was pretty good. Still too much in the wish fulfillment, but at least there was an interesting world and plot. In the video game the fan service/wish fulfillment was mostly side quest type stuff.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Yup - Even Inuyasha comes under the heading of "i・sekai." It doesn't matter what genre the anime covers, the better examples are way outnumbered by the ordinary, and the artform does have a stronger male following than female. Sadly, the better stories and stronger characters usually feature in the anime that targets teen girls.
        Oddly enough Inuyasha was her example of a "good Isekai" that she counted as part of the "traditionally female" start of the genre. From what I understand Inuyasha is a Shonen anime.

        I think part of the reason for some of the better stories being aimed at girls is that girls care more about interpersonal interactions and story quality on average while guys tend to care more about action and what looks cool on average. I look cool fight scenes too, but even a good Shonen anime like Fairy Tail has some really sloppy writing at times. I wish there was more of a focus on narrative and internal consistency in that and other series. Then again I'm not a typical guy, and most people that are don't care about that.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

          Oddly enough Inuyasha was her example of a "good Isekai" that she counted as part of the "traditionally female" start of the genre. From what I understand Inuyasha is a Shonen anime.

          I think part of the reason for some of the better stories being aimed at girls is that girls care more about interpersonal interactions and story quality on average while guys tend to care more about action and what looks cool on average. I look cool fight scenes too, but even a good Shonen anime like Fairy Tail has some really sloppy writing at times. I wish there was more of a focus on narrative and internal consistency in that and other series. Then again I'm not a typical guy, and most people that are don't care about that.
          As a fan of Inuyasha, I've always thought it was more female-oriented even if the main protagonist is male.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            As a fan of Inuyasha, I've always thought it was more female-oriented even if the main protagonist is male.
            At this point I'd just say it is more focused on story and character interaction than most shonen. It's almost a middle ground between shonen and shojo.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

              Oddly enough Inuyasha was her example of a "good Isekai" that she counted as part of the "traditionally female" start of the genre. From what I understand Inuyasha is a Shonen anime.
              Checking. Yep. Serialised in Shonen Weekly Sunday (distributed on Wednesdays).
              Checking - another really good show (animated movie) that falls into the isekai category is "Your Name?" 君の名は (There's a spin off that I'll have to look at.)

              I think part of the reason for some of the better stories being aimed at girls is that girls care more about interpersonal interactions and story quality on average while guys tend to care more about action and what looks cool on average. I look cool fight scenes too, but even a good Shonen anime like Fairy Tail has some really sloppy writing at times. I wish there was more of a focus on narrative and internal consistency in that and other series. Then again I'm not a typical guy, and most people that are don't care about that.
              Likewise. One that really disappointed was "Bleach" - first few episodes were so promising, but it devolved fairly quickly into a never ending go nowhere saga of "adventure."
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                Checking. Yep. Serialised in Shonen Weekly Sunday (distributed on Wednesdays).
                Checking - another really good show (animated movie) that falls into the isekai category is "Your Name?" 君の名は (There's a spin off that I'll have to look at.)



                Likewise. One that really disappointed was "Bleach" - first few episodes were so promising, but it devolved fairly quickly into a never ending go nowhere saga of "adventure."
                I enjoyed Bleach at first. But after the first season they seemed to have no idea what to do or where to go next. Basically, they just seemed to rip off ideas from other series as they lurched along.

                They did have some good opening and closing songs though, IIRC.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Checking. Yep. Serialised in Shonen Weekly Sunday (distributed on Wednesdays).
                  Checking - another really good show (animated movie) that falls into the isekai category is "Your Name?" 君の名は (There's a spin off that I'll have to look at.)
                  I've heard of Your Name and all good reviews. I'll have to check it out.

                  Likewise. One that really disappointed was "Bleach" - first few episodes were so promising, but it devolved fairly quickly into a never ending go nowhere saga of "adventure."
                  That's a friend of mine's all time favorite. Mostly because he really relates to Ichigo. Even he points out some of the flaws of the show. I've never seen it, but I'm still willing to give it a chance. Probably after I finish Fairy Tail and Rave Master. Fairy Tail might not have the greatest writing, but it's still pretty good. The part that irritated me most with the writing was on the Demon Island. It doesn't just set up a situation in which the reader might read the situation wrong, it gives blatantly false information. Taking out one speech bubble would make the twist work but with it it's just deceptive to the reader rather than being a twist that makes sense once all of the information is known.

                  As for Shonen with better stories there is Rorouni Kenshin, Yu Yu Hakusho, Cyborg 009(90's version), and Demon Slayer are some that I can think of offhand. For seinen you have BLAME!, Ghost in the Shell, and Ajin Demihuman.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                    I've heard of Your Name and all good reviews. I'll have to check it out.



                    That's a friend of mine's all time favorite. Mostly because he really relates to Ichigo. Even he points out some of the flaws of the show. I've never seen it, but I'm still willing to give it a chance. Probably after I finish Fairy Tail and Rave Master. Fairy Tail might not have the greatest writing, but it's still pretty good. The part that irritated me most with the writing was on the Demon Island. It doesn't just set up a situation in which the reader might read the situation wrong, it gives blatantly false information. Taking out one speech bubble would make the twist work but with it it's just deceptive to the reader rather than being a twist that makes sense once all of the information is known.

                    As for Shonen with better stories there is Rorouni Kenshin, Yu Yu Hakusho, Cyborg 009(90's version), and Demon Slayer are some that I can think of offhand. For seinen you have BLAME!, Ghost in the Shell, and Ajin Demihuman.
                    Going on that list, I'd recommend you look at Figure 17 as well, if you can get it. Oh, and for a light hearted touch, maybe 夏の嵐 (natsu no arashi/ storms of summer) - the anime, not the movie - I don't know what the English title really is.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Going on that list, I'd recommend you look at Figure 17 as well, if you can get it. Oh, and for a light hearted touch, maybe 夏の嵐 (natsu no arashi/ storms of summer) - the anime, not the movie - I don't know what the English title really is.
                      I'll check them out. I usually read the manga because it is something I can access easier and process quickly during downtime before bed. I can finish a volume of manga, which is about 5 episodes of anime on average in about half and hour compared to the around 2 hours and 30 minutes of watching five anime episodes. Some of them even discuss what was changed in translation and why they made such changes. Fairy Tail, Ajin Demihuman, and Fire Force all did this and I really liked that section.

                      Edit. It appears to be called Natsu no Arashi in English because Storms of Summer is already extremely common for titles of other works. Sadly no manga is available on Kindle Unlimited which is where I can access things the most quickly and cheapest.

                      Edit. 2 Figure 17 is also unavailable digitally on Amazon, maybe I can find it elsewhere.
                      Last edited by Cerebrum123; 01-16-2023, 01:22 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                        It is highly dubious, which is why I looked into it after the claim was made. What her reasoning was is that the early Isekai were all about female empowerment in societies where women had no power(she buys into oppression hierarch while saying hierarchies are bad). Even the most trivial amount of research proves this false. The earliest Japanese example of the genre is an old folk tale Urashima Tarō. For more recent, but still early Japanese Isekai we have Warrior from Another World, Superbook*, and Super Mario Bros. . Looking at the rest of the early Isekai shows that there has been a good balance between male oriented, female oriented, and in several of them are mixes of both male and female protagonists(like Digimon Adventure).
                        Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but as far as I can tell Super Mario Bros, at least in Japanese, was not an isekai. The stuff about "Mario and Luigi were from Brooklyn but then ended up in The Mushroom Kingdom" was something added in English spin-off material.

                        Yes, the "it's devolved to just male wish fulfillment' argument is understandable, and to an extent I agree with her on that point. It was the second part of her rant. Sword Art Online leans very far in that direction, much further than I would like**. What little I did get to read of the manga at least had an interesting world. And a video game based on a later season was similar to the parts of the manga I read. The knockoffs of Sword Art Online seem to focus on only the wish fulfillment aspect and less on anything else. However you also get stuff like That Time I got Reincarnated as a Slime that both toys with the concept of wish fulfillment while also subverting expectations regarding it. Rimuro is placed in a world that takes into account his dying wishes, but he ends up as a slime when he gets there. The wishes granted are also rather Monkey Paw like. The stuff he would really want is always just out of reach.
                        Honestly, That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime, despite him becoming a slime, ticks off most of the usual isekai things. He's crazy powerful (despite being a slime, which are supposed to be weak) and beats most enemies with ease. He gets his human form back relatively early too. But it is fair to say that it at least doesn't go with the harem angle like so many other isekai do (there's several girls who are crazy devoted to him but it's portrayed as completely platonic with no hints, at least so far, of romance).

                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        As a fan of Inuyasha, I've always thought it was more female-oriented even if the main protagonist is male.
                        Despite the name, the main character of InuYasha clearly seems to me to be Kagome, so that's a female main character. The author was female too. That said, it ran in a shonen (boy) magazine, so the series was definitely aimed primarily at a male demographic.

                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Checking - another really good show (animated movie) that falls into the isekai category is "Your Name?" 君の名は (There's a spin off that I'll have to look at.)
                        Your Name isn't isekai at all. All of it takes place in modern-day Earth.

                        Likewise. One that really disappointed was "Bleach" - first few episodes were so promising, but it devolved fairly quickly into a never ending go nowhere saga of "adventure."
                        Hrm. The opinion I have, and what seems to be the general opinion among fans, is that it was good through the end of the Soul Society arc, and it was only after that when it started really going downhill.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post

                          Your Name isn't isekai at all. All of it takes place in modern-day Earth.
                          Muddled time lines, body swapping, not cross world/universe (or is it) - that meteor makes it not quite this world: it has just enough of the isekai element to make it borderline, but it could be firmly placed simply in the fantasy genre.

                          Another fairly good offering: Ascendance of a Bookworm.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          If Palm Sunday really was a Sunday, Christ was crucified on a Thursday (which could be adduced from the gospels anyway).

                          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                            Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but as far as I can tell Super Mario Bros, at least in Japanese, was not an isekai. The stuff about "Mario and Luigi were from Brooklyn but then ended up in The Mushroom Kingdom" was something added in English spin-off material.
                            Actually that's incorrect. Mario being from Brooklyn is a really old aspect of the franchise. In fact the character himself was designed after a person who worked with Nintendo of America. The character first appeared in Donkey Kong, and was said to be a plumber from Brooklyn. Mario Bros. not to be confused with Super Mario Bros. has Mario and Luigi cleaning monsters out of pipes. Later on they had a Super Mario Bros. anime that was a full on Isekai anime much like the new movie coming out.

                            Honestly, That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime, despite him becoming a slime, ticks off most of the usual isekai things. He's crazy powerful (despite being a slime, which are supposed to be weak) and beats most enemies with ease. He gets his human form back relatively early too. But it is fair to say that it at least doesn't go with the harem angle like so many other isekai do (there's several girls who are crazy devoted to him but it's portrayed as completely platonic with no hints, at least so far, of romance).
                            Yup, that's why I said it plays with the wish fulfillment aspect, but kind of subverts it. He does get a humanoid body fairly early, but it's androgynous* and lacking some parts. Like I said, a bit of a Monkey's Paw trick in regards to his wish fulfillment. Unlike other wish fulfillment anime he's not just loved by nearly everybody for no reason. The people who become devoted to him make sense for him to become devoted to. I have a theory on where the story will eventually go, but I know some people hate it when I delve into that kind of stuff, especially if I'm right.

                            Despite the name, the main character of InuYasha clearly seems to me to be Kagome, so that's a female main character. The author was female too. That said, it ran in a shonen (boy) magazine, so the series was definitely aimed primarily at a male demographic.

                            I think that is a contributing factor as to why it's in an in between state with regards to male and female fans. It has a lot of shonen tropes, but focuses more on a female protagonist and story/character development.

                            *He can technically change some aspects of the outward appearance, but not the aspect he wants to. He also gets that humanoid body at a terrible price.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Muddled time lines, body swapping, not cross world/universe (or is it) - that meteor makes it not quite this world: it has just enough of the isekai element to make it borderline, but it could be firmly placed simply in the fantasy genre.
                              It's a fantasy series, but it's definitely not isekai in the slightest.

                              Another fairly good offering: Ascendance of a Bookworm.
                              I only saw the first season and wasn't all that impressed with the series. It felt like it took way too long for things to happen. Does it get better afterwards?

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by Terraceth, 01-15-2023, 09:48 PM
                              49 responses
                              86 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Cerebrum123  
                              Started by KingsGambit, 02-11-2014, 09:17 PM
                              680 responses
                              145,226 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Machinist  
                              Working...
                              X