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Partial Birth abortions

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Ectopic pregnancies are usually terminated early, long before a D&X would be possible
    Oh I know, I wasn't thinking in terms of a D&X, I was just thinking in terms of the broad category of termination for the mother's life sake at any point.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      I'm actually wondering if--rather than being few and far between--the circumstances even exist at all. Does anyone have any example in which an abortion was required to save a mother's life?
      I don't have any specific current medical knowledge about this, but I do have a story about my grandmother's pregnancy with my mother, which was obviously many, many years ago. While my grandmother's Catholic doctor was on vacation, my grandmother went to see another doctor who told her that she had a very irregular pregnancy and that the fetus would not be able to survive and that she should have an abortion very soon to save her own life. My grandmother decided to wait until her Catholic doctor was back in town. A relative was a nurse and tried to convince my grandmother that she had to have the abortion and told that if she did not have it right away, she would die. My grandmother said, 'well, then, I'll die'. When the Catholic doctor was back in town, he counseled a wait-and-see approach and said that with rest and prayer there was a chance that the pregnancy would normalize and become safe, which is, of course, what happened--otherwise I would not be here. I heard the story a few times while growing up, but it was not until I was a young adult that I began to appreciate how courageous (and stubborn) my grandmother was and she became an example of faith, hope, and prayer for me. She was more opinionated on church matters than was the normal fashion for Catholics of the time, especially women I suppose, but she had earned that status as an witness to what it means to live a life of moral vision and courage.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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      • #33
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        I don't have any specific current medical knowledge about this, but I do have a story about my grandmother's pregnancy with my mother, which was obviously many, many years ago. While my grandmother's Catholic doctor was on vacation, my grandmother went to see another doctor who told her that she had a very irregular pregnancy and that the fetus would not be able to survive and that she should have an abortion very soon to save her own life. My grandmother decided to wait until her Catholic doctor was back in town. A relative was a nurse and tried to convince my grandmother that she had to have the abortion and told that if she did not have it right away, she would die. My grandmother said, 'well, then, I'll die'. When the Catholic doctor was back in town, he counseled a wait-and-see approach and said that with rest and prayer there was a chance that the pregnancy would normalize and become safe, which is, of course, what happened--otherwise I would not be here. I heard the story a few times while growing up, but it was not until I was a young adult that I began to appreciate how courageous (and stubborn) my grandmother was and she became an example of faith, hope, and prayer for me. She was more opinionated on church matters than was the normal fashion for Catholics of the time, especially women I suppose, but she had earned that status as an witness to what it means to live a life of moral vision and courage.
        I'm glad your gramma waited.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #34
          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
          I don't have any specific current medical knowledge about this, but I do have a story about my grandmother's pregnancy with my mother, which was obviously many, many years ago. While my grandmother's Catholic doctor was on vacation, my grandmother went to see another doctor who told her that she had a very irregular pregnancy and that the fetus would not be able to survive and that she should have an abortion very soon to save her own life. My grandmother decided to wait until her Catholic doctor was back in town. A relative was a nurse and tried to convince my grandmother that she had to have the abortion and told that if she did not have it right away, she would die. My grandmother said, 'well, then, I'll die'. When the Catholic doctor was back in town, he counseled a wait-and-see approach and said that with rest and prayer there was a chance that the pregnancy would normalize and become safe, which is, of course, what happened--otherwise I would not be here. I heard the story a few times while growing up, but it was not until I was a young adult that I began to appreciate how courageous (and stubborn) my grandmother was and she became an example of faith, hope, and prayer for me. She was more opinionated on church matters than was the normal fashion for Catholics of the time, especially women I suppose, but she had earned that status as an witness to what it means to live a life of moral vision and courage.
          Great story. Thanks.
          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
            I think it is going to take one or two first world countries to have the courage to declare the unborn as actual members of our species for the rest to come along behind them and overturn this barbaric practice.
            I question the existence of any first world nation with the moral courage to do that. Sure does not seem to be the once great United States of America.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
              What is an example of a case where the mother's life is in danger?
              I do not know of any, nor have I actually heard of any. I have heard stories of women who chose not to accept treatment for something. They if these are real, chose to save their baby rather than themselves.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                I don't have any specific current medical knowledge about this, but I do have a story about my grandmother's pregnancy with my mother, which was obviously many, many years ago. While my grandmother's Catholic doctor was on vacation, my grandmother went to see another doctor who told her that she had a very irregular pregnancy and that the fetus would not be able to survive and that she should have an abortion very soon to save her own life. My grandmother decided to wait until her Catholic doctor was back in town. A relative was a nurse and tried to convince my grandmother that she had to have the abortion and told that if she did not have it right away, she would die. My grandmother said, 'well, then, I'll die'. When the Catholic doctor was back in town, he counseled a wait-and-see approach and said that with rest and prayer there was a chance that the pregnancy would normalize and become safe, which is, of course, what happened--otherwise I would not be here. I heard the story a few times while growing up, but it was not until I was a young adult that I began to appreciate how courageous (and stubborn) my grandmother was and she became an example of faith, hope, and prayer for me. She was more opinionated on church matters than was the normal fashion for Catholics of the time, especially women I suppose, but she had earned that status as an witness to what it means to live a life of moral vision and courage.
                A few similar stories have surfaced over the years. Who knows how many babies were killed over false information like this?
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #38
                  there's a couple of rare types of lupus which can onset late in pregnancy however the solution is to induce and allow the baby to live the rest of its natural life. this does result in death but not in termination nor an intentional murder.
                  A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                  George Bernard Shaw

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                  • #39
                    Maybe a tangent, but in a study of fetal pain, why would they be needling fetal livers in the first place? Don't think their mothers would let the doctors do that for fun.
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      A few similar stories have surfaced over the years. Who knows how many babies were killed over false information like this?
                      Have a old story from the old TWeb:

                      jpholding said:
                      May 29th 2010 02:38 PM
                      Re: May 2010 Screwballs
                      Reader sends two personal stories...personal data edited.


                      In my business, there is no shortage of New Agers. In fact, I have had more fun as a *** having discussions with my co-workers than anything else. One of my co-workers (who was just fired actually) is also my friend on facebook. She is a young un-wed mother who has a strong liking for Native American/earth-based religions. She fancies herself a scholar of mothering as since she gave birth she has read numerous New Age books on the concept and from time to time posts things for her friends on facebook to read.

                      Her most recent offering was a three page quote from a book on reclaiming the religion of the ancient goddess and retaking the rightful place of women as the “owners of human birth”. The basic point of the excerpt was that, as per the abortion debate, men should not have ANY voice at all. Men, so the authors argued, do not give birth, and as such, should not be able to tell women when they can, or cannot give birth.

                      I decided I would take particular umbrage with this, since I feel very strongly about the evil of abortion. My parents you see, were tricked by my mother’s doctor into going to a Planned Parenthood meeting when she was pregnant with my sister. The reason? Well, her doctor believed, based on an x-ray of my sister, that she would be born malformed, and with a malformed brain. Several times my mother’s doctor attempted to bring up the “option” of an abortion with my mother, and my father (even splitting them up at one point in a sort of “divide and conquer” tactic), but they would not even hear the beginning of it.

                      This doctor (who my parents “fired” after this incident occurred) felt so strongly that my parents should not have my sister that she, along with planned parenthood, set up a meeting at a neutral location, attempting to pass it off as a class on how to raise more than one child at a time. Basically, when they separated my mom from my dad (under the pretense that it was all part of the “class”) they ambushed my mom with ridiculous questions. “Did you know it’s not scientifically a baby until it emerges from your body?” and other such neutral questions at first. But as the time progressed, they became more heated and intrusive. “Are you ready for the burden of a retarded child? One of my friends has one and she never has time to do anything for herself anymore?” “You’re actually being selfish, what’s going to happen when you and you husband die? Are you going to expect you son to care for it? If not, the remainder of society? How is that fair to us and our normal children?”

                      My father discovered what was happening, and when he demanded to be let into the room with my mom, who in turn demanded he be let in with her (actually having to break through several men who were stupid enough to get in his way….my dad is a big, big guy) one of the female representatives of planned parenthood pointed at my dad and screamed at my mom “Your allowing yourself to be controlled by this patriarchal, Christian, misogynist! All you’re doing is forcing the world to allow inferior genes to proliferate! You should be ashamed!”

                      Well, my sister was born with no defects. Even had she been, we all would have been happy. My parents attempted to take legal action against Planned Parenthood, but could prove nothing.

                      This was all fresh in my mind as I read through my (former) friend’s page filled with numerous references to “the tyrannical and patriarchal” society we live in.

                      Now for some quotes. Due to the events which transpired after this interaction took place (my friend cut all ties with me on facebook so I cannot view her original piece or our comments afterward) I’ll have to quote from memory.

                      Her article alleged that “it is a cornerstone of Christian doctrine that the female womb is only ‘holy’ when the male sperm enters into it.”

                      I asked for a reference from the Bible or other ‘Christian’ source, to which she replied “The birth of Jesus by Mary.”

                      I asked how the birth narratives in the Gospels regarding Jesus could be used to justify reading such an alien doctrine into orthodox Christianity, to which I was told: “***, I have personally been to a church where I heard them teach this explicit ally. I don’t have to be a Christian to know this.”

                      After responding that there is no such doctrine and anyone barely conscious could see this, I decided to tackle this nugget:

                      “the oppression of women began after Christianity “cornered the market” on the deity business. ‘There is only one God and HE is a MALE’ screams the Christian. The pre-Christian goddess empowerment of women found in the religions of Isis and Athena was lost when Christianity demanded that women be good, be quiet, and stay at home.”

                      I pointed out that just the opposite was true. The fact that western thought and ethics (including the treatment of women) experienced rapid growth under Christendom as opposed to the oppression they suffered under the goddess cults these women so adore. I was told:

                      “****, everyone knows what you said to total BS. It is common knowledge that the world was going great until the rise of Christianity. Have you heard of the dark ages? Wanna know why they were dark? Christianity! And if the sources you mention attempt to contradict this, then they are by biased Christians or just wrong. We all know the truth.”

                      But the one that got me was her response to my assertion that women do NOT control reproduction. Her argument was that women have a special, mystic “internal feeling” that lets them know when they should allow a child to be born or to abort it. Since women alone have this, or so she said, women alone should weigh in on the abortion issue. “Besides,” she said, “It is well known in the scientific world that the entity is not human until long after conception.” My response was two pages of quotes from Philosophers, Ethicists and Scientists in respected journal and books who argued that a human is indeed present immediately prior to conception, and my own arguments that her “internal feeling” crap was….crap.

                      She ended the discussion promptly. First telling me that the only say a man should have in birth is IF HE HAS A DREAM IN WHICH HE CONVERSES WITH THE UNBORN BABY ON THE FUTURE OF SAID UNBORN BABIES LIFE. Then, apparently, he is allowed to tell the mother.

                      Next, she called me a “witch-hunter” who favors rape and crimes against women. Her last message read “@$%& you!” and then she deleted my profile.

                      Sad…..but from the academic point of view, this was better than my next example.




                      I entered into a discussion with a man on a facebook who created a poll asking “How bogus is Christianity?”

                      I asked first “Why do you think Christianity is bogus?”

                      Now….I thought this was a joke, but this guys started quoting, extensively, 19th century sources on religion….but he responded

                      “Firstly, the Bible record inaccurate history. Why doesn’t it mention Atlantis? Why not hyperborea? These were the first great human societies. Hyperborea invented writing for **** sake! Why doesn’t the Bible mention them?”

                      Me: Are you serious? Hyperborea and Atlantis? Where are the sources?

                      Next to a few obscure names from the 19th century….are you ready for this….he quoted a page from (one of my favorite comics BTW) the Library Edition of Hellboy # 3!!!! Saying:

                      “look on page 124 where it quotes the famous spiritualist H.P. Blavatsky in the 1800’s. She wrote, through her spirit guide, that the Hyperboreans created the written word.”

                      And I was done. I walked away and never looked back.
                      "It's evolution; every time you invent something fool-proof, the world invents a better fool."
                      -Unknown

                      "Preach the gospel, and if necessary use words." - Most likely St.Francis


                      I find that evolution is the best proof of God.
                      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      I support the :
                      sigpic

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                        Maybe a tangent, but in a study of fetal pain, why would they be needling fetal livers in the first place? Don't think their mothers would let the doctors do that for fun.
                        CBW, I don't think that's a tangent and I think your correct to ask. Could you send me a link so I can read this? It'd be interesting to split this off into another thread.
                        A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                        George Bernard Shaw

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                          CBW, I don't think that's a tangent and I think your correct to ask. Could you send me a link so I can read this? It'd be interesting to split this off into another thread.
                          I think I saw somewhere else that it was for a transfusion. Makes more sense than the heart. And the veins are teeny weeny. I wonder why the umbilical cord wouldn't work? Moves too much?
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                          • #43
                            So... I wonder what it would be like to explain to a victim of partial birth abortion the who, what, when, where, and how of their death?
                            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                              So... I wonder what it would be like to explain to a victim of partial birth abortion the who, what, when, where, and how of their death?
                              Your closest bet is someone like Gianna Jessen who survived being aborted. (her birth certificate reads "born during saline abortion")
                              "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
                              -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

                              Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                              1 Corinthians 16:13

                              "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                              -Ben Witherington III

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                              • #45
                                I meant a baby in Heaven. I don't know how babies will be on the New Earth(whether they grow up or instantly get an adult body), but would you want to explain to a small child that they were killed by a doctor sucking out their brains?
                                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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