Apparently I'm the only one unfamiliar with these terms. What do "MSM" and "MRM" mean?
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Misrep at A Voice for Men
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Tempest in a teapot, can't really see much of a point in responding. And way too much not-racist-ing going on. Sex realism without race realism isn't truth-seeking, it's expediency for your own benefit.
But Paul Elam's alienated enough of the mainstream men's rights movement as it is (he no longer posts at The Spearhead, I noticed.) The greats, like Heartiste, always explicitly connect men standing up for their rights with general social decay, the failure of democracy, reactionary philosophy, the inescapability of genetics, and the perverse incentives of elite white liberal power grabs masquerading as charity, usually with other people's money.
If you search avidly for the truth you will most certainly find yourself among the men's rights activists at some point, if you stay among the marginalized, though, you've probably been satisfied with brass instead of gold.
Still, even with his ability to alienate people, Paul Elam's certainly no Andrea Dworkin, and has not to my knowledge advocated treating all sex as rape or published extreme kill-all-men philosophy in a public university to near-zero serious media attention, so until I can see a point to these articles I'm going to dismiss them as a distraction. The crazy extreme philosophies of the day are not being advocated via those who look like crazy extremists.
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostThe problem is that in feminism, the people who think women should have more rights then men or are superior to men are in the minority, whereas in men's rights activism, there's a majority denying systematic sexism against women. It's a case of the enlightened and the ignorant.
Women's rights has been mostly about fighting inequality.
Men's rights has been mostly about fighting equality.
It's "white pride" for gender.
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Originally posted by Epoetker View PostTempest in a teapot, can't really see much of a point in responding. And way too much not-racist-ing going on. Sex realism without race realism isn't truth-seeking, it's expediency for your own benefit."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by seasanctuary View PostYes, all of that.
Women's rights has been mostly about fighting inequality.
Men's rights has been mostly about fighting equality.
It's "white pride" for gender.The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Originally posted by Epoetker View PostTempest in a teapot, can't really see much of a point in responding. And way too much not-racist-ing going on. Sex realism without race realism isn't truth-seeking, it's expediency for your own benefit.
But Paul Elam's alienated enough of the mainstream men's rights movement as it is (he no longer posts at The Spearhead, I noticed.) The greats, like Heartiste, always explicitly connect men standing up for their rights with general social decay, the failure of democracy, reactionary philosophy, the inescapability of genetics, and the perverse incentives of elite white liberal power grabs masquerading as charity, usually with other people's money.
If you search avidly for the truth you will most certainly find yourself among the men's rights activists at some point, if you stay among the marginalized, though, you've probably been satisfied with brass instead of gold.
Still, even with his ability to alienate people, Paul Elam's certainly no Andrea Dworkin, and has not to my knowledge advocated treating all sex as rape or published extreme kill-all-men philosophy in a public university to near-zero serious media attention, so until I can see a point to these articles I'm going to dismiss them as a distraction. The crazy extreme philosophies of the day are not being advocated via those who look like crazy extremists.
Oh well.The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostWell can't say I agree with that generalization. What we call "equality" today is usually uber-rights, and there are reactionary movements against uber-rights that have basis in justice. But unfortunately in this movement there are people just using it as an excuse for their misogyny."As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by seasanctuary View PostYes, all of that.
Women's rights has been mostly about fighting inequality.
Men's rights has been mostly about fighting equality.
It's "white pride" for gender.
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Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View PostWell can't say I agree with that generalization. What we call "equality" today is usually uber-rights, and there are reactionary movements against uber-rights that have basis in justice. But unfortunately in this movement there are people just using it as an excuse for their misogyny.
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Originally posted by seasanctuary View PostWhere do women have "uber-rights"? Not a rhetorical question.
If you can't see it, I really have zero patience to explain it.
We women just wuvvvv our protected class status.Attached FilesLast edited by Darth Xena; 02-22-2014, 09:17 AM.The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.
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Well there is this for example. Any affirmative action program that includes gender. Lowing physical requirements for women and not for men in the military. Shrill media freakout at criticism of women when equivalent criticism of men is laughed at.
If you can't see it, I really have zero patience to explain it.
We women just wuvvvv our protected class status.
If this forum turns into /r/mra, it may need nuking from orbit.
Let's do this point by point, followed by a quick analysis of the movement as a whole.
The "child support" article
Abortion is a matter of bodily autonomy. The body of a pregnant person is not the not-pregnant-sexual-partner's, and hence it's not their choice.
WRT child support: the act of being pregnant for 9 months, delivering the baby and raising it it a *considerably* higher burden than any child support payments.
(As it happens, I wouldn't have any sort of child support - but not out of "OMG ITS SO UNFAIR ON TEH MENZ" but out of "they should be provided for regardless.")
WRT: The picture - Two things. Firstly, one of these is actually doing harm to a real child. Secondly, stigma around parents not being there is an interesting one - you'll find "deadbeat mothers" are viewed a lot worse, but it happens a lot less. Probably because of the perception of mother-as-nuturer.
Affirmative action
The reason affirmative action/positive discrimination programmes exist in the first place is because of imbalance. It's to redress the fact that people with certain privileges (male, white, etc.) make up more of the workforce in certain fields*.
A common argument against it is the idea that "it means you get less qualified people for the job." This quite clearly ignores the fact that knowledge of a person's [gender, race or other characteristics] actively effects how people judge qualifications.
Not only that, increased representation in a field actively aids future interest and applications by disadvantaged groups.
AA isn't "unfair" to [men, white people, etc] - it just tries to reduce the advantage *they already have.*
*Yes, I'm aware that there are fields dominated by women. Fields that women were historically forced into as "jobs that men didn't think were worthy of doing themselves" (nursing, teachers...)
In general, as the power and pay of the job increases, the percentage of men in it increases.
Physical requirements in the military
(I'm no fan of the military, however. Or physical activity for that matter.)
One question when talking about physical standards is: what are you actually testing for? To quote a blogger (Cliff):
My feeling is that there should be one standard, but the people (okay, the guys) who design PT tests should think about what they're really testing for. Do the standards reflect the actual challenges of the job, or do they reflect a relatively arbitrary desire for people in the top percentiles of physical fitness? In other words, are you rejecting a woman because she can't drag hose upstairs, or because she isn't "generally physically fit"? If it's the latter, then sex-divided PT standards are appropriate. But I've never seen a fire go around poking bellies to see who's generally fit, and really, anyone who can pass performance-based standards can't be exactly Spuddie The Amazing Couch Potato.
It's also worth noting that the military physical tests are also divided based on age.
Criticism in the media, etc
This issue is probably too complicated to go into in a few sentences, but the media is absolutely vile to women, especially ones with aspirations to or who hold powerful positions.
No one probably has time to read this, but this paper is really fascinating.
On general power in society
The vast majority of institutional, social, political and financial power in every nation in the world is in the hands of men. I don't see how anyone can possibly doubt that. Look at income, or representation in politics or business management, control over and employment in the media, and so on and so on.
It's true there are some (relative to controlling the entirity of civilisation, minor) things that suck for men. The big one is expectations of hyper masculinity ("boys don't cry!" and not being allowed to express emotion/"weakness") which leads to things like higher suicide rates, inability to report sexual assault/abuse, and so on.
But, where do these things that impact men badly come from? It's not from women - given we've already established their relative lack of power - it's from social systems set up by and for men.
For pretty much every "bad thing" that society does to men, you can see a complimentary issue that's used to reduce the capacity for women to have and wield power:
- Men aren't allowed to show feelings --> Women are over-emotional, irrational and incapable of making decisions/taking leadership decisions.
- Men (single fathers in particular) aren't good at raising children --> It's a woman's place to be nuturing and raise children.
- Men fight and die in wars (in particular, MRAs like to complain about the draft.) --> Women are weak and have to be protected.
The Men's Rights Movement (MRM)
Misogyny in the MRM is not a bug, it's a feature. It's essentially the incoherent frothing misogyny of a particular group of men who are upset over the fact that their power as a group is somewhat less explicit (despite still being in control of the vast majority of everything.)
They don't even actually do any campaigning on anything other than "women are evil" - they'll happily use things like male rape/abuse victims to further their agenda, but draw the line at actually doing anything about it. (Actually, there was a recent MRA campaign against false rape accusations (which is a non-issue and is just used to shame and blame victims of rape and sexual assault) - in the form of flooding a system with false rape reports.)
Check out reddit's slash-r-slash-mra or the spearhead if you want to see the sort of vile crap they come up with. Or if you want a more humourous take on it, try manboobz (a compilation of the "best" (worst) stuff by a cool feministy dude. I can't quote them here (or on any website with a shred of decency in its moderation policy) because of the sheer bile-spitting bigotry that's in place all over it.
MRA views also tend to come hand in hand with being hugely racist and homophobic, as well. Surprise surprise.
TL;DR Entitled white dudes whine and are disgusting: The musical.
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