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Iran Sanctions Lifted

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Wow, because ... that's just bridbrained dumb.
    All my best jokes are wasted on you, CP.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      Ah, No, are you?

      “[Regional Shia power Iran has seen IS - which regards Shia Muslims as heretics who should be killed - advance to within 25 miles (40km) of its border.

      Although Iran stands on the opposite side of much of the international community over Syria, it has called for co-operation against IS. It has reached out to its rival Saudi Arabia - the leading Sunni power - and turned a blind eye to US actions in Iraq, which it has historically opposed.

      Officially Iran denies it has deployed any combat troops in Syria, but in June 2015, the official Irna news agency said at least 400 Iranian and Iran-based Afghan "volunteers" had been killed in the past four years.

      In Iraq, the Iranians have played a key role in countering IS. Revolutionary Guards have advised Iraqi security forces, Iranian pilots have carried out air strikes, and Iranian-backed Shia militia have been mobilised.]”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29074514
      So, Obama had nothing to do with them opposing ISIS.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        All my best jokes are wasted on you, CP.
        If you're deploying your best jokes, I'd hate to hear the stinkers.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          So, Obama had nothing to do with them opposing ISIS.
          Correct.
          Wahhabi doctrine links Saudi Arabia to IS – which leaves the Western powers with a thorny problem.
          Last edited by firstfloor; 01-18-2016, 03:25 PM.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #35
            Thanks so much, US, for lifting the sanctions on Iran, which will now further flood the market with oil and cause more damage to the Canadian economy.
            Last edited by mossrose; 01-18-2016, 06:42 PM.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
              Could you expand on "more harm than good"?

              My general impression is that without the international sanctions, South Africa would never have moved beyond Apartheid and Iran would never have agreed to end their nuclear enrichment program. I'm barely aware of how the sanctions have affected resident populations, having only looked at claims of collateral damage from the sanctions regime in Iraq. Is this what you're talking about in South Africa.

              Specifics if you can, please. Thanks!
              Keep in mind I was only 13 in 1993 when Nelson Mandela was released from prison, and Apartheid officially ended.

              But what I've seen is that sanctions has about as much effect as shunning does. It only works if the person being shunned gives a damn.
              When we were under sanctions the biggest irritant that people still talk about is that we couldn't compete in international sports. We still sold our military hardware, just to the countries that were also outcast (IIRC during the Gulf War we were still selling arms to Iraq).
              Our economy was still pretty strong (thanks to gold, diamonds and all that cheap labour). If anyone suffered from it it was that certain items (not essentials) were a bit pricier or harder to come by. The reason apartheid ended was partly because we were sick of the civil war with the ANC (and it was a pretty much a civil war) and enough people realised what a stupid idea Apartheid was.


              I saw more with sanctions that were against Zimbabwe. Mugabe and ZANU-PF didn't care they have millions of dollars and still live the life of luxury. It's the people who suffered, and the people resented the countries imposing the sanctions (those who resent Mugabe tended to develop electrical burns on their genitals if they are male or become a regimental sex slave if they are female).


              To Iran, I don't trust them at all. I think Khamenei is saying what he needs to to get what he wants and that he won't hesitate to stab the west in the back. As mentioned Iran still funds a number of nasty terrorist groups, and as far as I've heard still wants to wipe Israel off the map

              But the sanctions themselves? All they've done is build up resentment against the west in the people of Iran.
              I don't think sanctions are an effective tool.
              "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
              -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

              Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
              1 Corinthians 16:13

              "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
              -Ben Witherington III

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                Thanks so much, US, for lifting the sanctions on Iran, which will now further flood the market with oil and cause more damage to the Canadian economy.
                Actually it is Saudi Arabia's decision to dump as much oil into the market to control its oil market that is causing the problem with world oil prices, and impact the economy of the rest of the world oil economy.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  Correct.
                  Wahhabi doctrine links Saudi Arabia to IS – which leaves the Western powers with a thorny problem.
                  Historical cheek warming of western powers of Saudi Arabia to satisfy their oil gluttony, despite the radical Islamic beliefs of Saudi Arabia which is the source of many radical movements in history. Eventually the piper will be paid in full.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Actually it is Saudi Arabia's decision to dump as much oil into the market to control its oil market that is causing the problem with world oil prices, and impact the economy of the rest of the world oil economy.
                    There's more to it than that, Shuny... OPEC, and SA in particular, are much more savvy about price controls, and wouldn't force oil to below $30. That would be cutting off their face to spite our nose, so to speak. China's economic slowdown has a whole lot to do with this. It's a combination of a strong U.S. dollar, OPEC, oversupply, declining demand and the Iran nuclear deal.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Actually it is Saudi Arabia's decision to dump as much oil into the market to control its oil market that is causing the problem with world oil prices, and impact the economy of the rest of the world oil economy.
                      That's not what the news reports said yesterday. They said Iran was preparing to glut the market more.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        That's not what the news reports said yesterday. They said Iran was preparing to glut the market more.
                        I saw the same report, but Saudi Arabia has been trying to flood the market in an attempt to ruin the shale oil business (they've largely succeeded) and keep ISIS from being able to make as much selling oil on the black market.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          That's not what the news reports said yesterday. They said Iran was preparing to glut the market more.
                          Iran is not in the market yet to try and do anything. They will be in the market, and of course they will try and sell what oil they can. It is Saudi Arabia dumping for a long time. They are capable of absolutely controling market volume and price.
                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 01-19-2016, 09:38 AM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                            Will do later, I'm at work at the moment, and have home group this evening. (remind me if I don't get to it)
                            Thanks for getting back to me on this.

                            Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                            Keep in mind I was only 13 in 1993 when Nelson Mandela was released from prison, and Apartheid officially ended.

                            But what I've seen is that sanctions has about as much effect as shunning does. It only works if the person being shunned gives a damn.
                            When we were under sanctions the biggest irritant that people still talk about is that we couldn't compete in international sports. We still sold our military hardware, just to the countries that were also outcast (IIRC during the Gulf War we were still selling arms to Iraq).
                            Our economy was still pretty strong (thanks to gold, diamonds and all that cheap labour). If anyone suffered from it it was that certain items (not essentials) were a bit pricier or harder to come by. The reason apartheid ended was partly because we were sick of the civil war with the ANC (and it was a pretty much a civil war) and enough people realised what a stupid idea Apartheid was.
                            I remember anti-Apartheid campus protesters in the mid-80s in Chicago. I started college late after getting out of the military, and was studying engineering, so I was never much tempted to participate myself, though I looked at their fliers and did some investigation. Frankly, my most lasting memory is of the song:



                            I take your point on shunning, and giving a damn, but I don't miss how it also affects the opposition. Strengthening the opposition, even without weakening the governing party, changes the power calculus. Sanctions have a way of growing over time as well if the moral argument can be sustained internationally. The holes in the sanctions during the mid-80s, sustained by the Reagan/Thatcher regimes, filled over time, much as the sanctions against Cuba have eroded. In the context of sanctions against Iran, the international coalition assembled by the Obama administration differed qualitatively from any previously imposed sanctions regime.

                            I saw more with sanctions that were against Zimbabwe. Mugabe and ZANU-PF didn't care they have millions of dollars and still live the life of luxury. It's the people who suffered, and the people resented the countries imposing the sanctions (those who resent Mugabe tended to develop electrical burns on their genitals if they are male or become a regimental sex slave if they are female).
                            I take your point here as well. For sanctions to make an impact, there has to be a meaningful opposition party.

                            To Iran, I don't trust them at all. I think Khamenei is saying what he needs to to get what he wants and that he won't hesitate to stab the west in the back. As mentioned Iran still funds a number of nasty terrorist groups, and as far as I've heard still wants to wipe Israel off the map

                            But the sanctions themselves? All they've done is build up resentment against the west in the people of Iran.
                            I don't think sanctions are an effective tool.
                            I think there's a good deal of truth in what you're saying, but I also think it's overly pessimistic, and in particular I don't think it's a fair summary. Khamenei may be the ultimate leader in Iran, but he's not unconstrained. Rouhani campaigned and was elected on a platform of supporting civil rights and improving relations with the West. His election argues that his policies have gained popular support that's been eroded from the religious authorities.

                            If Iran hasn't been entirely honest about their nuclear program, they've still been more honest than, well, Israel, for example. "Death to America," despite Starlight's suggestion of a recent recantation, has always been about American policies. I suspect Iranian opposition to Israel is more deeply felt, but similarly based more on Israeli policies, especially as voiced by its current leadership in the past election, than on an interest in exterminating Israel and its resident Israelis themselves.

                            When it comes to trust, I have more difficulty trusting Saudi Arabia. Iran has always been a more natural ally for us. Their current rule of the Ayatollahs is far less deeply rooted than the devil's bargain between the house of Saud and the Wahhabi Salafists in control of Mecca. There is no world-wide scattering of aspiring Hajjis looking to them for access to holy sites supporting a pillar of Islam. I went to school with Iranians, who called themselves Persians in the wake of the hostage crisis, taking advantage of American ignorance of history. I've had Saudi students. While both groups have more liberal elements, the more religiously extreme, and scary, frankly, were unquestionably members of the Sunni contingent.

                            As an American, there's inherent conflict in speaking of our relationship with Iran. We staged the overthrow of Mossadegh and supplanted their home-brewed democratic government with the Shah. They distrust us for a reason.

                            Thank you again for your thoughts.

                            As ever, Jesse

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