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What is the cause? Society problem of a high divorce rate and single parent families?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
    That it's irrelevant in a discussion about homosexual vs heterosexual parenting, for a multitude of reasons. Its benefits are not enough of a reason on their own, especially when it's not an observed practice among all heterosexual mothers.
    I don't disagree that its benefits are not enough on their own. Nor is it, like Catholicity said, a hill worth dying on. However, you're being dismissive, and that's not fair. Some mothers do not breastfeed but to say it's not an observed practice is inaccurate. See here. Around 80% of mothers in the United States reportedly breastfeed their infants.

    As for research conducted on adults raised by homosexuals compared to heterosexual, please note the following from this article:

    Source: Univ. of Texas Social Science Research

    New Family Structure

    ...Sixty-nine (69) percent of LMs (raised in lesbian household) and 57% of GFs (raised in gay household) reported that their family received public assistance at some point while growing up, compared with 17% of IBFs (raised with biological family); 38% of LMs said they are currently receiving some form of public assistance, compared with 10% of IBFs. Just under half of all IBFs reported being employed full-time at present, compared with 26% of LMs. While only 8% of IBF respondents said they were currently unemployed, 28% of LM respondents said the same. LMs
    were statistically less likely than IBFs to have voted in the 2008 presidential election (41% vs. 57%), and more than twice as likely—19% vs. 8%—to report being currently (or within the past year) in counseling or therapy ‘‘for a problem connected with anxiety, depression, relationships, etc.,’’ an outcome that was significantly different after including control variables.

    © Copyright Original Source



    There are many more analyses to include besides these.

    Of course, there are the very practical circumstances of a child and their developing bodies. A girl raised by men will not be able to receive the same quality of experiential and emotional support while she advances through puberty. Likewise, a boy raised by women will not receive the same kind of support that only a father could provide.

    Not to mention, a father provides an example for his daughter when she searches for a husband, and likewise a son to his mother when looking for a wife. Neither of these can a homosexual couple provide.

    Yes, there are accommodations that can be used to supplement what is lacking. However, to say that homosexuals do not lack anything in which only heterosexuals couples can provide is unreasonable. My main point is that homosexual parents necessarily deny a kind of care that only heterosexuals can provide.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by nico View Post
      I don't disagree that its benefits are not enough on their own. Nor is it, like Catholicity said, a hill worth dying on. However, you're being dismissive, and that's not fair. Some mothers do not breastfeed but to say it's not an observed practice is inaccurate. See here. Around 80% of mothers in the United States reportedly breastfeed their infants.

      As for research conducted on adults raised by homosexuals compared to heterosexual, please note the following from this article:

      Source: Univ. of Texas Social Science Research

      New Family Structure

      ...Sixty-nine (69) percent of LMs (raised in lesbian household) and 57% of GFs (raised in gay household) reported that their family received public assistance at some point while growing up, compared with 17% of IBFs (raised with biological family); 38% of LMs said they are currently receiving some form of public assistance, compared with 10% of IBFs. Just under half of all IBFs reported being employed full-time at present, compared with 26% of LMs. While only 8% of IBF respondents said they were currently unemployed, 28% of LM respondents said the same. LMs
      were statistically less likely than IBFs to have voted in the 2008 presidential election (41% vs. 57%), and more than twice as likely—19% vs. 8%—to report being currently (or within the past year) in counseling or therapy ‘‘for a problem connected with anxiety, depression, relationships, etc.,’’ an outcome that was significantly different after including control variables.

      © Copyright Original Source



      There are many more analyses to include besides these.

      Of course, there are the very practical circumstances of a child and their developing bodies. A girl raised by men will not be able to receive the same quality of experiential and emotional support while she advances through puberty. Likewise, a boy raised by women will not receive the same kind of support that only a father could provide.

      Not to mention, a father provides an example for his daughter when she searches for a husband, and likewise a son to his mother when looking for a wife. Neither of these can a homosexual couple provide.

      Yes, there are accommodations that can be used to supplement what is lacking. However, to say that homosexuals do not lack anything in which only heterosexuals couples can provide is unreasonable. My main point is that homosexual parents necessarily deny a kind of care that only heterosexuals can provide.
      If you're going to assume a best-case scenario for heterosexual couples, then why can't it be imagined that a homosexual couple would be able to provide the same things through alternative means?

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by nico View Post
        I don't disagree that its benefits are not enough on their own. Nor is it, like Catholicity said, a hill worth dying on. However, you're being dismissive, and that's not fair. Some mothers do not breastfeed but to say it's not an observed practice is inaccurate. See here. Around 80% of mothers in the United States reportedly breastfeed their infants.
        I tend to be dismissive of inane arguments, yes. I never said it wasn't an observed practice, either.


        Originally posted by nico View Post
        As for research conducted on adults raised by homosexuals compared to heterosexual, please note the following from this article:

        Source: Univ. of Texas Social Science Research

        New Family Structure

        ...Sixty-nine (69) percent of LMs (raised in lesbian household) and 57% of GFs (raised in gay household) reported that their family received public assistance at some point while growing up, compared with 17% of IBFs (raised with biological family); 38% of LMs said they are currently receiving some form of public assistance, compared with 10% of IBFs. Just under half of all IBFs reported being employed full-time at present, compared with 26% of LMs. While only 8% of IBF respondents said they were currently unemployed, 28% of LM respondents said the same. LMs
        were statistically less likely than IBFs to have voted in the 2008 presidential election (41% vs. 57%), and more than twice as likely—19% vs. 8%—to report being currently (or within the past year) in counseling or therapy ‘‘for a problem connected with anxiety, depression, relationships, etc.,’’ an outcome that was significantly different after including control variables.

        © Copyright Original Source



        There are many more analyses to include besides these.
        I've seen this study before and found it unconvincing then as well. It's not comparing kids raised within same-sex marriages (or even long-term same-sex partnerships) to those raised within heterosexual marriages, which is what is at issue. It compares those raised with a parent engaged in same-sex relationships at some point, and less than 1/4th of kids raised with such a parent lived with that parent for longer than four months.


        Originally posted by nico View Post
        Of course, there are the very practical circumstances of a child and their developing bodies. A girl raised by men will not be able to receive the same quality of experiential and emotional support while she advances through puberty. Likewise, a boy raised by women will not receive the same kind of support that only a father could provide.

        Not to mention, a father provides an example for his daughter when she searches for a husband, and likewise a son to his mother when looking for a wife. Neither of these can a homosexual couple provide.
        All of which is replaceable and ultimately irrelevant to whether or not breastfeeding can form any basis of argument against homosexuals raising children. It can't.


        Originally posted by nico View Post
        Yes, there are accommodations that can be used to supplement what is lacking. However, to say that homosexuals do not lack anything in which only heterosexuals couples can provide is unreasonable. My main point is that homosexual parents necessarily deny a kind of care that only heterosexuals can provide.
        You're contradicting yourself. It's clear that homosexual parents don't necessarily deny this kind of care. The central claim here is 'only heterosexual couples can provide', which you've admitted is untrue by allowing that other accommodations exist.
        I'm not here anymore.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
          If you're going to assume a best-case scenario for heterosexual couples, then why can't it be imagined that a homosexual couple would be able to provide the same things through alternative means?
          We need to do better than "it can be imagined", I think, but the other side needs to show it can't be.
          I'm not here anymore.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
            I tend to be dismissive of inane arguments, yes. I never said it wasn't an observed practice, either.
            I'd hardly call breastfeeding an inane aspect of motherhood. Not every mother does it, therefore it's irrelevant is a bit shortsighted, but ok.

            I've seen this study before and found it unconvincing then as well. It's not comparing kids raised within same-sex marriages (or even long-term same-sex partnerships) to those raised within heterosexual marriages, which is what is at issue. It compares those raised with a parent engaged in same-sex relationships at some point, and less than 1/4th of kids raised with such a parent lived with that parent for longer than four months.
            Feel free to share any research studies you have. I'd be interested to evaluate the source of sampling data.

            All of which is replaceable and ultimately irrelevant to whether or not breastfeeding can form any basis of argument against homosexuals raising children. It can't.
            It wasn't a point about breastfeeding, I think that was made clear in the content itself. Only the top portion of my previous response was regarding breastfeeding.

            You're contradicting yourself. It's clear that homosexual parents don't necessarily deny this kind of care. The central claim here is 'only heterosexual couples can provide', which you've admitted is untrue by allowing that other accommodations exist.
            No, it's good as it stands. They do necessarily deny that quality of care. Having to import the male or female person in place of a mother or father in order to provide that quality of care effectively reduces its quality. Finding a friend, a neighbor, aunt or uncle to give what the same-sex parents cannot, it is not near the same as the parent themselves providing it.

            I think your views on what a mom can provide that two gay man cannot by simply importing a friend, aunt, or whatever to do the same thing is overly mechanically and ignores the emotional part of this. A friend or aunt is not the same as a mom, but I suppose you have different ideas.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by nico View Post
              I'd hardly call breastfeeding an inane aspect of motherhood. Not every mother does it, therefore it's irrelevant is a bit shortsighted, but ok.


              No one called it an inane aspect of motherhood. I said that using breastfeeding as an argument against same-sex parenting is inane.


              Originally posted by nico View Post
              Feel free to share any research studies you have. I'd be interested to evaluate the source of sampling data.
              I'm unaware of any studies on either side that handle this topic well.


              Originally posted by nico View Post
              It wasn't a point about breastfeeding, I think that was made clear in the content itself. Only the top portion of my previous response was regarding breastfeeding.
              You need to check the context of my reply to CP.


              Originally posted by nico View Post
              No, it's good as it stands. They do necessarily deny that quality of care. Having to import the male or female person in place of a mother or father in order to provide that quality of care effectively reduces its quality. Finding a friend, a neighbor, aunt or uncle to give what the same-sex parents cannot, it is not near the same as the parent themselves providing it.
              The reality is that quality of care varies wildly across all parents regardless of sexual orientation or relationship status, nor is it even quantifiable as a measure of parenting success. As an argument against same-sex parenting, one would have to show that there are quantifiable differences and that the differences come down in favor of heterosexual parenting. Neither of those things can be done, effectively rendering the entire line of argumentation moot.


              Originally posted by nico View Post
              I think your views on what a mom can provide that two gay man cannot by simply importing a friend, aunt, or whatever to do the same thing is overly mechanically and ignores the emotional part of this. A friend or aunt is not the same as a mom, but I suppose you have different ideas.
              You bet I have different ideas about whether a friend or aunt is the same as a mom given the simple fact that the ideal mom that's so often used as a baseline in these arguments simply doesn't exist. My treatment isn't any more mechanical than yours is, you just wish to represent it as something different.
              I'm not here anymore.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by nico View Post
                I don't disagree that its benefits are not enough on their own. Nor is it, like Catholicity said, a hill worth dying on. However, you're being dismissive, and that's not fair. Some mothers do not breastfeed but to say it's not an observed practice is inaccurate. See here. Around 80% of mothers in the United States reportedly breastfeed their infants.

                As for research conducted on adults raised by homosexuals compared to heterosexual, please note the following from this article:

                Source: Univ. of Texas Social Science Research

                New Family Structure

                ...Sixty-nine (69) percent of LMs (raised in lesbian household) and 57% of GFs (raised in gay household) reported that their family received public assistance at some point while growing up, compared with 17% of IBFs (raised with biological family); 38% of LMs said they are currently receiving some form of public assistance, compared with 10% of IBFs. Just under half of all IBFs reported being employed full-time at present, compared with 26% of LMs. While only 8% of IBF respondents said they were currently unemployed, 28% of LM respondents said the same. LMs
                were statistically less likely than IBFs to have voted in the 2008 presidential election (41% vs. 57%), and more than twice as likely—19% vs. 8%—to report being currently (or within the past year) in counseling or therapy ‘‘for a problem connected with anxiety, depression, relationships, etc.,’’ an outcome that was significantly different after including control variables.

                © Copyright Original Source



                There are many more analyses to include besides these.

                Of course, there are the very practical circumstances of a child and their developing bodies. A girl raised by men will not be able to receive the same quality of experiential and emotional support while she advances through puberty. Likewise, a boy raised by women will not receive the same kind of support that only a father could provide.

                Not to mention, a father provides an example for his daughter when she searches for a husband, and likewise a son to his mother when looking for a wife. Neither of these can a homosexual couple provide.

                Yes, there are accommodations that can be used to supplement what is lacking. However, to say that homosexuals do not lack anything in which only heterosexuals couples can provide is unreasonable. My main point is that homosexual parents necessarily deny a kind of care that only heterosexuals can provide.
                The Regnerus Study you're citing has been utterly and comprehensively discredited; I'm astonished that you should present it as evidence to support your cause.

                http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2015/05...debunked.html#
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Sounds like it's all, "My Dad can beat up your Dad!" Which liar to believe?
                  Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
                    Well I don't think anyone is going to argue stability. But its being taken too far in order to prove something that is not necessarily good. Let me try to explain it:
                    Best for a child over all: Father and Mother, Stable Loving environment.
                    What's the next best thing? Single parent stable home with a strong loving bond and role model from both parents. Ideally both parents work for whats in the best interest of the child
                    Next? Single parent of either gender with a strong role model of the opposite gender from family, teachers, clergy etc.
                    You think that is better than "Two parents of the same gender with a strong role model of the opposite gender from family etc"?
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by nico View Post
                      I don't disagree that its benefits are not enough on their own. Nor is it, like Catholicity said, a hill worth dying on. However, you're being dismissive, and that's not fair. Some mothers do not breastfeed but to say it's not an observed practice is inaccurate. See here. Around 80% of mothers in the United States reportedly breastfeed their infants.

                      As for research conducted on adults raised by homosexuals compared to heterosexual, please note the following from this article:

                      Source: Univ. of Texas Social Science Research

                      New Family Structure

                      ...Sixty-nine (69) percent of LMs (raised in lesbian household) and 57% of GFs (raised in gay household) reported that their family received public assistance at some point while growing up, compared with 17% of IBFs (raised with biological family); 38% of LMs said they are currently receiving some form of public assistance, compared with 10% of IBFs. Just under half of all IBFs reported being employed full-time at present, compared with 26% of LMs. While only 8% of IBF respondents said they were currently unemployed, 28% of LM respondents said the same. LMs
                      were statistically less likely than IBFs to have voted in the 2008 presidential election (41% vs. 57%), and more than twice as likely—19% vs. 8%—to report being currently (or within the past year) in counseling or therapy ‘‘for a problem connected with anxiety, depression, relationships, etc.,’’ an outcome that was significantly different after including control variables.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      There are many more analyses to include besides these.

                      Of course, there are the very practical circumstances of a child and their developing bodies. A girl raised by men will not be able to receive the same quality of experiential and emotional support while she advances through puberty. Likewise, a boy raised by women will not receive the same kind of support that only a father could provide.

                      Not to mention, a father provides an example for his daughter when she searches for a husband, and likewise a son to his mother when looking for a wife. Neither of these can a homosexual couple provide.

                      Yes, there are accommodations that can be used to supplement what is lacking. However, to say that homosexuals do not lack anything in which only heterosexuals couples can provide is unreasonable. My main point is that homosexual parents necessarily deny a kind of care that only heterosexuals can provide.
                      The problem with this is I have repeatedly stated that this thread is not about same sex parents versus female/male parents.



                      The topic of the thread is the problem of two parent families versus single parent families, and the accusations that liberals are in some way encouraging single-parent families, and the problem of fault of single-parent families.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Carrikature View Post


                        No one called it an inane aspect of motherhood. I said that using breastfeeding as an argument against same-sex parenting is inane.
                        If it is not an inane aspect of motherhood then why would it be an inane argument against same-sex parenting? It is an aspect of motherhood that gay men cannot provide. You're implying that it is only inane when couples can't provide it, but not inane when women do. I feel you're dodging the implications and parsing words instead.

                        I'm unaware of any studies on either side that handle this topic well.
                        I appreciate the honesty but now we're left to postulate in regards to same-sex parents. You may not be saying it but others have staunchly asserted themselves about facts and research. If there is none worth noting then at the very least we can accept the large body of research that has been conducted about the benefits of a mother and father.

                        The reality is that quality of care varies wildly across all parents regardless of sexual orientation or relationship status, nor is it even quantifiable as a measure of parenting success. As an argument against same-sex parenting, one would have to show that there are quantifiable differences and that the differences come down in favor of heterosexual parenting. Neither of those things can be done, effectively rendering the entire line of argumentation moot.
                        I already pointed out a few quantifiable points. I don't see how you can ignore them or even say that they are irrelevant.

                        You bet I have different ideas about whether a friend or aunt is the same as a mom given the simple fact that the ideal mom that's so often used as a baseline in these arguments simply doesn't exist. My treatment isn't any more mechanical than yours is, you just wish to represent it as something different.
                        A mother who acts like one and plays an intentional role in the life of her children is not uncommon. You're convoluting her role with the justification that the ideal doesn't exist, therefore her role doesn't matter or can be easily replaced with someone else. If you're saying something different I'm not seeing it.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          The problem with this is I have repeatedly stated that this thread is not about same sex parents versus female/male parents.



                          The topic of the thread is the problem of two parent families versus single parent families, and the accusations that liberals are in some way encouraging single-parent families, and the problem of fault of single-parent families.
                          Alrighty, sorry then.

                          Comment

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