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Surrogate Mother Told to Abort Female Triplet!

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Joel View Post
    As I've just been discussing with Spartacus a few posts up, surrogacy could be done via free gift--without any exchange. So if the objection is to the presence of an exchange, then that is not an objection to the act itself.
    The commodification is what is at issue, not the compensation received for services rendered.
    I'm not here anymore.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
      To exchange vows in that way isn't bad, but it isn't the full sacrament of marriage
      Sure it is. That's like saying baptism isn't the full sacrament without confirmation.

      On another note, I'm coming to agree with your point re: commodification.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #63
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Several early saints agreed to marry (because they had legally been betrothed) but live celibate lives together. Consummation of a marriage is certainly not a legally indispensable element of marriage (outside of the purview of the RCC, at any rate).
        Come to think of it, Scripture says Joseph married Mary, and Catholics say they never consummated.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
          The commodification is what is at issue, not the compensation received for services rendered.
          Then I don't know what you mean by "commodification".

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Sure it is. That's like saying baptism isn't the full sacrament without confirmation.

            On another note, I'm coming to agree with your point re: commodification.
            I don't know the canon law surrounding marriage as well as I should (for all I know, you're right about the sacramentality question), but I'm pretty sure that never having consummated a marriage means that marriage can be annulled.
            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Joel View Post
              Come to think of it, Scripture says Joseph married Mary, and Catholics say they never consummated.
              They had other kids. It's a safe bet they consummated at some point.
              I'm not here anymore.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Joel View Post
                Then I don't know what you mean by "commodification".
                Try this on for starters: Commodification.
                I'm not here anymore.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                  I don't know the canon law surrounding marriage as well as I should (for all I know, you're right about the sacramentality question), but I'm pretty sure that never having consummated a marriage means that marriage can be annulled.
                  Granted, but AFAICS annulment is a fig leaf mostly used in attempts to get around the RCC's stance on not allowing divorce.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                    They had other kids.
                    That depends on how the relevant passages are interpreted. Even most Protestants held to the perpetual virginity of Mary until the 19th century.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                      Originally posted by Joel
                      Originally posted by Carrikature
                      Originally posted by Joel
                      As I've just been discussing with Spartacus a few posts up, surrogacy could be done via free gift--without any exchange. So if the objection is to the presence of an exchange, then that is not an objection to the act itself.
                      The commodification is what is at issue, not the compensation received for services rendered.
                      Then I don't know what you mean by "commodification".
                      Try this on for starters: Commodification.
                      From the article:
                      "commodification is about unsalable things becoming salable."
                      And says it's a Marxist concept, in which normal employment is commodification.
                      The complaint (of those complaining about commodification) is that something is for sale that ought not be for sale.

                      So... it entails that the thing is being bought/sold. Which, as I was saying, is not an essential property of surrogacy, so it is not an objection to the act itself. Unless you mean something else by "commodification"?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Joel View Post
                        From the article:
                        "commodification is about unsalable things becoming salable."
                        And says it's a Marxist concept, in which normal employment is commodification.
                        The complaint (of those complaining about commodification) is that something is for sale that ought not be for sale.

                        So... it entails that the thing is being bought/sold. Which, as I was saying, is not an essential property of surrogacy, so it is not an objection to the act itself. Unless you mean something else by "commodification"?
                        While it is not an essential property of surrogacy, it is an exceedingly frequent property of surrogacy.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                        sigpic
                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          While it is not an essential property of surrogacy, it is an exceedingly frequent property of surrogacy.
                          Okay. But I'm responding to Carrikature saying that "the wrong lies both in the act and in the justification for the act" (post 50) and then saying that "compensation received for services rendered" is not at issue (post 61). So it's not just that the existence of payment is not an essential property; it's that Carrikature himself said it is not at issue and that he thinks the the act itself is wrong. So I'm left wondering why he thinks the act itself is wrong. And what he means by commodification apart from the existence of exchange, when commodification, according to his own link, means exchange.

                          And if compensation were the wrong, then why wouldn't that (instead of surrogacy) be the thing they want to ban? (Like how states ban prostitution without banning sexual intercourse.)

                          (And I myself am not convinced that compensating a surrogate is a bad thing.)

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            If I give you something without charging you, does that mean it is not a commodity? A sandwich? A car? Land? Shares in a company?
                            Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Spartacus View Post
                              If I give you something without charging you, does that mean it is not a commodity? A sandwich? A car? Land? Shares in a company?
                              The article to which Carrikature linked gave two definitions of commodity, and both of them have to do with buying/selling/markets (one having to do with the existence of buying/selling, the other having to do with fungibility in a market, and "commodification" was identified only with the former). It would seem that free gift is not a commodity.

                              You might be suggesting that the existence of commerce for something elsewhere makes it a commodity everywhere. But I'm not sure that's a good way to approach it. Prostitution occurs, but it doesn't seem reasonable to conclude, from that, that every instance of sexual intercourse is therefore a commodity, including when it occurs as a free gift.

                              On the other hand, if you defined commodity just in terms of fungibility, then it would be independent of whether an instance was sold or given as a gift. A share of a company is a commodity in that sense, that it is fungible, regardless how ownership is transferred.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                                That depends on how the relevant passages are interpreted. Even most Protestants held to the perpetual virginity of Mary until the 19th century.
                                They're welcome to believe whatever they want, but it's still crazy to think that Joseph and Mary never had sex at any point. Even as a Christian, I was never a fan of making up junk to make things even more mystical.
                                I'm not here anymore.

                                Comment

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