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Why not create a word for matrimony blessed by GOD (Christian Marriage)

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    If I honestly disagree that Christ rose from the dead, can I be considered "saved"?
    Not my call, CP.

    Nor has anybody claimed that.
    I'm not saying anyone has. But there are self-identified Christians out there who honestly, sincerely believe that homosexuality is not a sin. I don't know if you can call it ignorance, because they've delved into the issue to the depth that some others here have delved into other issues. They may be _wrong_, they may be in error, but I don't think it's precisely accurate to call everyone who identifies as Christian, and who states that homosexuality is not a sin, is "ignorant."

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
      Isn't that the implication when someone claims that because of rejection of non-central beliefs, certain people aren't Christians?
      Repentance is hardly a "non-central" belief of Christianity. It is fundamental.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Repentance is hardly a "non-central" belief of Christianity. It is fundamental.
        The point Paprika is making is not about repentance (that's definitely a central belief), it's about whether or not homosexuality is a sin.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Outis View Post
          Not my call, CP.
          If Christ did not rise from the dead, our hope is in vain. That's clearly stated. (1 Cor 15)

          I'm not saying anyone has. But there are self-identified Christians out there who honestly, sincerely believe that homosexuality is not a sin. I don't know if you can call it ignorance, because they've delved into the issue to the depth that some others here have delved into other issues. They may be _wrong_, they may be in error, but I don't think it's precisely accurate to call everyone who identifies as Christian, and who states that homosexuality is not a sin, is "ignorant."
          And I would have to agree that it's not likely that a self-identified Christian who claims to sincerely believe that homosexuality is not a sin is NOT "ignorant" -- I think they made a conscious choice.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Outis View Post
            The point Paprika is making is not about repentance (that's definitely a central belief), it's about whether or not homosexuality is a sin.
            And, as stated, I really don't believe somebody who has made a sincere effort to be a Christ follower CAN sincerely believe that homosexuality is not a sin. Therefore, in my opinion, they are not "ignorant" of that sin, and are making a conscious decision to believe what they want to believe to allow their "brand" of Christianity. Hence, in my opinion, the are not repentant, and repentance is, as I think we all agree, a central and fundamental component of Christianity.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              If Christ did not rise from the dead, our hope is in vain. That's clearly stated. (1 Cor 15)
              I was referring more generally to the question "Who is a Christian" as not being my call.

              And I would have to agree that it's not likely that a self-identified Christian who claims to sincerely believe that homosexuality is not a sin is NOT "ignorant" -- I think they made a conscious choice.
              And you've not?

              Note that I am NOT saying your choice is wrong ... in its context. (Yes, I disagree with your choice in a larger context, but that's rather out of scope for this discussion.) But it is also a choice.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Outis View Post
                I was referring more generally to the question "Who is a Christian" as not being my call.
                Nor is it mine, unless they are within my sphere of spiritual responsibility -- if they wanted to teach or hold a position of responsibility in my Church, I need to make that call.

                And you've not?
                I've not what? Made a conscious decision? Not sure where you're going here.

                Note that I am NOT saying your choice is wrong ... in its context. (Yes, I disagree with your choice in a larger context, but that's rather out of scope for this discussion.) But it is also a choice.
                I believe the Bible is clear about homosexuality. I don't have any authority over those who claim to be "Christians" outside of my Church, and my own spiritual authority as pastor. I've seen far too much "you're not a Christian" angst on Tweb, or strong implications that somebody is not because -- of all things -- they dared to disagree, albeit in a somewhat forceful manner.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I believe the Bible is clear about homosexuality.
                  The specific decision I'm speaking of is the decision to interpret the Bible as literal and authoritative, and to disregard the possibility that the authors were influenced by their cultural mores rather than by some eternal standard. Again, I'm not saying you are right or wrong. I'm simply verifying my suspicion that this was a conscious choice on your part.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    To return to the OP, this is the advantage if we adopt or create a term for our own use. We can always relate it to the meaning based on the Bible.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      And what about those people who honestly think that the Scriptures do not forbid homosexuality?
                      They are honestly wrong.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                        Isn't that the implication when someone claims that because of rejection of non-central beliefs, certain people aren't Christians?
                        This is not a "non-central" belief.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Outis View Post
                          I'm not saying anyone has. But there are self-identified Christians out there who honestly, sincerely believe that homosexuality is not a sin."
                          There are also those who self-identify as Christians who think that there are multiple separate gods who earned their godhood at different times. Those are the ones I am talking about that want Christ to conform to them, not the other way around.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          - Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                            They are honestly wrong.
                            But are they Christians?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                              But are they Christians?
                              No. No more than the Mormons who are honestly wrong about there being an infinite regression of gods.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Paprika has been running the same line of thought, so I'm content to let him continue. I did want to make a couple of points.


                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                A practicing homosexual is not repenting. The bible is quite clear that those who live a certain way (not commit a sin once, or even once in a great while contrary to their active repenting) will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The active homosexual is not repenting, therefore they do not have the Spirit of God in them.
                                I understand where you are coming from, but I find the bolded to be something nearly all people fall prey to. There might be what we consider the more obvious sins, but I've yet to find anywhere that shows God actually cares differently about various kinds of sins. It's all just sin.


                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I believe the Bible is clear about homosexuality. I don't have any authority over those who claim to be "Christians" outside of my Church, and my own spiritual authority as pastor. I've seen far too much "you're not a Christian" angst on Tweb, or strong implications that somebody is not because -- of all things -- they dared to disagree, albeit in a somewhat forceful manner.
                                The "you're not a Christian" is what I was specifically pointing out. I grant that some people who think they are Christians definitely aren't, but I fail to see how anything more than "you're not living in line with the principles" is something anyone should say. For all that it's touted as being explicitly clear, homosexuality isn't even addressed in the NT. That could be considered important to some, especially since this is considered a new covenant in which the old ways are no longer applicable. The extent of that is murky.
                                I'm not here anymore.

                                Comment

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