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Interesting Comments on the Confederate Flag Debate.

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  • Interesting Comments on the Confederate Flag Debate.

    Seattle Seahawks wide receiver Doug Baldwin gave a long, thought-out response to the issue of the Confederate flag. This is what he wrote on his Facebook page Saturday:

    Pensacola, FL. Home sweet home. I can respect freedom of speech.

    Hell, I've been known to rub people the wrong way during times when I have publicly stood for something I believed in. And I guess there is the occasional football rant. But that is a different story. Today I want to discuss this picture, depicting individuals demonstrating their freedom of speech, taken in my home town. It is not surprising to see, however, that it's still a very frustrating image to me for various reasons. Why? Well, I grew up in this area and know the population all too well. A noose hanging from a rearview mirror wasn't outside the realm of what I would see in my high school parking lot. My experiences in life have taught me that you can't expect ignorance to educate itself. Being an African-American born in the South, there is some confirmation bias in play here but I'm going to attempt to share some history while stating my stance on the subject based on that history.

    First, let's discuss some facts of history. The flag that we are debating over is not even the original confederate flag. This information may seem irrelevant but it is important to point out for the sake of validity in my argument. Although it wasn't the official flag of the Confederate States of America, it was the battle flag used by Robert E. Lee, a general in the Confederate Army. So the flag at some point did indeed represent the "rebel" cause. These "rebels", for the most part, were fighting against the union in an effort to keep slavery in place. (You can check this fact by googling the Articles of Secession). For the sake of this argument, let's negate that simple fact. (This is a key element to an argument a lot of supporters of the flag are making.) So, what is the relevance of the flag without the context of the Civil War?

    Ever heard of the civil rights movement? In the late '40s, the flag was an adopted symbol of the segregationist Dixiecrat party. Article 4 of their platform stated, "We stand for the segregation of the races." In 1956, the battle flag was a prominent feature on the redesign of Georgia's state flag partly in response to the Supreme Court's ruling to desegregate schools just two years earlier. They have since removed it. The argument we hear today is that the flag represents "Southern Heritage" and "Southern Pride". The only relevant "heritage" I could find in history not pertaining to the Civil War was associated with racism and segregation. Is this the heritage and pride you speak of?

    That brings me full circle. By understanding the significant historical symbolism of Robert E. Lee's battle flag, we can easily identify the various messages that flying the flag represents. But to all of you exercising your right to freedom of speech: Do you even know what you are supporting? To those arguing against the flag, make sure your argument is based on the facts.

    I'm sure there are those individuals that understand what the flag stands for and still support it. And to that group I say, may God bless you because I'm having a hard time with grace myself. As a 26-year-old who grew up in the South around many supporters of the confederate flag, I would like to ask those same people to answer this question: What does southern pride and heritage really mean? Is it the sweet tea and hospitality? Or is this a sense of pride for the rebellious actions against a national government who had the audacity to say that secession was unconstitutional and slavery was wrong? Furthermore, I’d like to ask, how does this symbol, which produces such a strong feeling of offense by those who were oppressed under it, best represent that pride and heritage? If you can answer these questions and defend this flag in a way that isn’t rooted in a sense of emotional, stubborn pride for the oppressive intent this flag has represented in the past, then I’ll gladly commend you for it. But until then, I’ll be patiently waiting for the day ignorance can educate itself and will do my part to try and educate it in an assertive, respectful manner.

    Respectfully,

    - DB

    It is an interesting take on the flag, but I will refrain on my opinion for now. I'm curious to hear other thoughts and ideas.

  • #2
    My comment at this time is that yes, it was considered the Official Flag of the Confederate Navy, and it was a part of a number of Official flags of the Confederate States of America. Because of Lee's success and reverence in the South, it became the dominant battle flag for the armies of the South.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Raptor View Post
      It is an interesting take on the flag, but I will refrain on my opinion for now. I'm curious to hear other thoughts and ideas.
      That's very well written, and especially so considering it comes from a professional football player rather than a professional writer. At the very least, I'd say its a valuable addition to the conversation.

      And, of course, the obvious ... he's spot on and absolutely right.

      Comment


      • #4
        These questions asked by Doug Baldwin, and not answered yet by those that support the Confederate battle flag as a symbol of 'Southern Heritage.' I have asked these questions and not received an answer yet, other than a vague 'I would not understand.'

        Source: Doug Baldwin



        would like to ask those same people to answer this question: What does southern pride and heritage really mean? Is it the sweet tea and hospitality? Or is this a sense of pride for the rebellious actions against a national government who had the audacity to say that secession was unconstitutional and slavery was wrong? Furthermore, I’d like to ask, how does this symbol, which produces such a strong feeling of offense by those who were oppressed under it, best represent that pride and heritage?

        © Copyright Original Source

        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          These questions asked by Doug Baldwin, and not answered yet by those that support the Confederate battle flag as a symbol of 'Southern Heritage.' I have asked these questions and not received an answer yet, other than a vague 'I would not understand.'

          Source: Doug Baldwin



          would like to ask those same people to answer this question: What does southern pride and heritage really mean? Is it the sweet tea and hospitality? Or is this a sense of pride for the rebellious actions against a national government who had the audacity to say that secession was unconstitutional and slavery was wrong? Furthermore, I’d like to ask, how does this symbol, which produces such a strong feeling of offense by those who were oppressed under it, best represent that pride and heritage?

          © Copyright Original Source

          I hear a definite roar of silence from the Confederate flag 'Heritage' advocates.

          Need an explanation for what is the meaning of the 'Heritage of the Confederate flags.' that is different today than in the 1860's.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #6
            Fighting dirty Yankees of course. And what's so interesting about the OP, it's just the usual anti-flag boilerplate.
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              I hear a definite roar of silence...
              Maybe you need new batteries in your hearing aids. Happens to my Dad all the time.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                Fighting dirty Yankees of course. And what's so interesting about the OP, it's just the usual anti-flag boilerplate.
                Hey, I'm a Yankee! Upset because we kicked your butts Goober?
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Hey, I'm a Yankee! Upset because we kicked your butts Goober?
                  I'm Canadian, our only interaction with you was to send you packing and burn down the White House in the war of 1812.
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Raptor View Post
                    It is an interesting take on the flag, but I will refrain on my opinion for now. I'm curious to hear other thoughts and ideas.
                    He is wrong on several points and woefully reductionist on several others. If I feel up to it tomorrow, I'll deconstruct his comments and correct him where he needs it and affirm him where he deserves it.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                      I'm Canadian, our only interaction with you was to send you packing and burn down the White House in the war of 1812.
                      Yeah well, you just got lucky!
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                        I'm Canadian, our only interaction with you was to send you packing and burn down the White House in the war of 1812.
                        The Brits were eventually sent packing and lost the war of 1812. Talk about ridiculous nostalgia of the past and closet racism, does not speak well of you.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          The Brits were eventually sent packing and lost the war of 1812. Talk about ridiculous nostalgia of the past and closet racism, does not speak well of you.
                          The Brits did not lose the War of 1812. During much of it they were sorta preoccupied with this guy named Napoleon. The United States was lucky to get out of that conflict as a wash, as the Brits could have declined to negotiate a treaty and sent their veterans over.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                            I'm Canadian, our only interaction with you was to send you packing and burn down the White House in the war of 1812.
                            You guys had nothing whatsoever to do with that except to go running off to your Brit overlords and beg them to do it for you in revenge for our sacking of York (Toronto) and the raid on Port Dover. It was a British force originally stationed in Bermuda that sacked Washington D.C. while you guys were still resting up after going out and clubbing baby seals.

                            This is like some crybaby kid sending his father over to beat up another kid and then boasting how he was the one to beat him up

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                              I'm Canadian, our only interaction with you was to send you packing and burn down the White House in the war of 1812.
                              Easy there killer, you were still cashing those checks under the name "British Empire" back then.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Raptor; 07-22-2015, 01:51 PM.

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