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"If you didn't serve..."

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  • "If you didn't serve..."

    I know somebody who recently served in either Iraq or Afghanistan for a fairly significant amount of time. He is a decent Christian person... and he has been shocking me on Facebook. There is apparently a group of veterans who have been making fun of other veterans who express concerns about fireworks on their PTSD, calling them mostly names I can't repeat on this site... basically calling them feminine. This doesn't strike me as Christian behavior, but he insists that anybody who was not in the military does not have the right to defend the PTSD sufferers as they weren't there and don't understand the dynamics.

    I understand the concern in general with wanting non-veterans not to criticize military issues, but am I the only person who thinks that this particular situation is taking it a bit far? I don't think military service excepts one from basic human decency.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    The whole "If you didn't" or "you've never" shtick is stupid in my honest opinion. I don't need to be a chef to know if the food is any good or not. The person you are speaking about seems to be pretty out of line here. So I agree.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I know somebody who recently served in either Iraq or Afghanistan for a fairly significant amount of time. He is a decent Christian person... and he has been shocking me on Facebook. There is apparently a group of veterans who have been making fun of other veterans who express concerns about fireworks on their PTSD, calling them mostly names I can't repeat on this site... basically calling them feminine. This doesn't strike me as Christian behavior, but he insists that anybody who was not in the military does not have the right to defend the PTSD sufferers as they weren't there and don't understand the dynamics.

      I understand the concern in general with wanting non-veterans not to criticize military issues, but am I the only person who thinks that this particular situation is taking it a bit far? I don't think military service excepts one from basic human decency.
      As most of you know I enlisted in the Marine Corps during the Vietnam war. Even though I wasn't "in country" I had a lot of good friends that were. The problem is, you are speaking of a warrior culture where you are trained to just suck it up. I grew up in a neighborhood that was populated with WW2 combat Vets. Yes they had the bad dreams, loud noises may have made them flinch and they did, sometimes, drink to much. But basically they handled it and and led good, productive lives. The fact is I know a lot of combat vets from WW2 up to the present who see this whole PTSD thing as over kill (pardon the pun).
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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      • #4
        It depends on your experience in combat. I've seen former combat marines cry over memories. If you read the biography of Louis Zamperini (of the Unbroken book and now movie) you'd see that he did indeed suffer psychological trauma for years after the war. He endured years of alcoholism and PTSD (suffering from depression and persistent nightmares). An interesting article here: http://www.theguardian.com/science/b...tress-disorder

        Audie Murphy, the most decorated WWII combat soldier suffered from PTSD. How could you not when you witness your best friend being killed? He suffered from insomnia and depression. He was in major pain and got hooked on drugs. Here's a page that tells more. You'll have to scroll down. http://www.americans-working-togethe...ptsd/id15.html

        I have a friend who is a Vietnam vet. He has had major issue stemming from his experience. He suffers from major depression but he's fighting back. PTSD is a real thing and we've known about it for ever. It was formally called battle fatigue. Trauma is trauma and you can have a traumatic event in your life and suffer mental trauma for years. I wasn't even in Vietnam (nor the military) but ten years ago I suffered a bout with depression that gave me an inside look at that hideous monster. You CAN'T just suck it up. You're fooling yourself if you think you can. If you are one who "can" then you are a very small exception to this rule.

        No one should ever tell a vet so suck it up. Especially another vet. And let me be clear, you do not have to have served in the military to understand PTSD. It's not unique to military service. Moreover, those of us who did not have military experience have every right, indeed an obligation, to speak up on behalf of our military brothers and sisters who served on our Country's behalf. And I don't fully have to fully understand the dynamics of something to qualify me to speak up on the subject. I know enough from reading and experience to know that PTSD is real and if a vet tells me he or she is troubled by this or that, I ought not to judge but to be supportive.

        When I suffered from major depression I was told to suck it up. Stupid ignorant advice. I was a basket case. I was lost and didn't know what to do. I got help from people who cared and didn't judge. Compared to some, my case was mild. I still struggle but now have tools to help me. I can't imagine what a traumatic combat event would have done to me. All vets deserve our help.

        "A man good enough to shed his blood for his country, is good enough to receive a square deal afterwards . . ."
        -- Theodore Roosevelt
        Last edited by Papa Zoom; 07-04-2015, 03:02 PM.
        Faith is not what we fall back to when reason isn't available. It's the conviction of what we have reason to believe. Greg Koukl

        The loss of objectivity in moral thought does not lead to liberation. It leads to oppression. Secular ideologies preach liberty, but they practice tyranny. — Nancy Pearcey

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          I know somebody who recently served in either Iraq or Afghanistan for a fairly significant amount of time. He is a decent Christian person... and he has been shocking me on Facebook. There is apparently a group of veterans who have been making fun of other veterans who express concerns about fireworks on their PTSD, calling them mostly names I can't repeat on this site... basically calling them feminine. This doesn't strike me as Christian behavior, but he insists that anybody who was not in the military does not have the right to defend the PTSD sufferers as they weren't there and don't understand the dynamics.

          I understand the concern in general with wanting non-veterans not to criticize military issues, but am I the only person who thinks that this particular situation is taking it a bit far? I don't think military service excepts one from basic human decency.
          The dynamics of what one needs to do physically and mentally to survive in a war zone are very different than the dynamics of what one needs to do to survive after coming home from war. It's inappropriate to bully veterans with PSTD, even if that sort of coping mechanism was necessary when these individuals were active-duty soldiers.

          One cannot look at the massive problems vets face (everything from increased risk of homelessness to suicide) and imagine that emasculation will make the problems better.
          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Papa Zoom View Post
            It depends on your experience in combat. I've seen former combat marines cry over memories. If you read the biography of Louis Zamperini (of the Unbroken book and now movie) you'd see that he did indeed suffer psychological trauma for years after the war. He endured years of alcoholism and PTSD (suffering from depression and persistent nightmares). An interesting article here: http://www.theguardian.com/science/b...tress-disorder

            Audie Murphy, the most decorated WWII combat soldier suffered from PTSD. How could you not when you witness your best friend being killed? He suffered from insomnia and depression. He was in major pain and got hooked on drugs. Here's a page that tells more. You'll have to scroll down. http://www.americans-working-togethe...ptsd/id15.html

            I have a friend who is a Vietnam vet. He has had major issue stemming from his experience. He suffers from major depression but he's fighting back. PTSD is a real thing and we've known about it for ever. It was formally called battle fatigue. Trauma is trauma and you can have a traumatic event in your life and suffer mental trauma for years. I wasn't even in Vietnam (nor the military) but ten years ago I suffered a bout with depression that gave me an inside look at that hideous monster. You CAN'T just suck it up. You're fooling yourself if you think you can. If you are one who "can" then you are a very small exception to this rule.

            No one should ever tell a vet so suck it up. Especially another vet. And let me be clear, you do not have to have served in the military to understand PTSD. It's not unique to military service. Moreover, those of us who did not have military experience have every right, indeed an obligation, to speak up on behalf of our military brothers and sisters who served on our Country's behalf. And I don't fully have to fully understand the dynamics of something to qualify me to speak up on the subject. I know enough from reading and experience to know that PTSD is real and if a vet tells me he or she is troubled by this or that, I ought not to judge but to be supportive.

            When I suffered from major depression I was told to suck it up. Stupid ignorant advice. I was a basket case. I was lost and didn't know what to do. I got help from people who cared and didn't judge. Compared to some, my case was mild. I still struggle but now have tools to help me. I can't imagine what a traumatic combat event would have done to me. All vets deserve our help.

            "A man good enough to shed his blood for his country, is good enough to receive a square deal afterwards . . ."
            -- Theodore Roosevelt
            To be fair, Zamperini's problems came from being a prisoner of war - largely. And the fact is most combat vets do just fine and do look at, rightly or wrongly, PTSD, as a weakness.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              I know somebody who recently served in either Iraq or Afghanistan for a fairly significant amount of time. He is a decent Christian person... and he has been shocking me on Facebook. There is apparently a group of veterans who have been making fun of other veterans who express concerns about fireworks on their PTSD, calling them mostly names I can't repeat on this site... basically calling them feminine. This doesn't strike me as Christian behavior, but he insists that anybody who was not in the military does not have the right to defend the PTSD sufferers as they weren't there and don't understand the dynamics.

              I understand the concern in general with wanting non-veterans not to criticize military issues, but am I the only person who thinks that this particular situation is taking it a bit far? I don't think military service excepts one from basic human decency.
              I used to know a Vietnam veteran who had been captured, held as a POW, and tortured with rats. Because of his PTSD, he could not handle the sight of rodents, at all. Everywhere else in life, he was a very strong and capable person; but seeing a rat or a mouse or even just pictures of these animals would quickly send him to tears.

              His PTSD was so bad, even Mickey Mouse would trigger an anxiety attack in him.

              The idea that "you didn't go through it, so you can't judge" is quite simply fallacious. I don't need to actually experience being imprisoned and tortured for months in order to empathize with a man who has been. Nor do I need to have been in a combat situation to empathize with those who are returning from Iraq and Afghanistan with PTSD. Nor does having actually experienced such things give a person a free ethical license to insult and demean others who came away from those situations with lasting trauma.
              "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
              --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                One cannot look at the massive problems vets face (everything from increased risk of homelessness to suicide) and imagine that emasculation will make the problems better.
                If I remember the suicide rate for combat vets is lower than for vets that were not in combat.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think some of these guys may be whistling past the graveyard, thinking (hoping) something like this (PTSD) would never happen to them, because they're tough.

                  As a young police officer, I dealt with some WWII vets who had "shell shock". I can tell you, they weren't playing. Whatever it was, it was real to them.

                  I think one of the problems here is the "me too" mentality -- somebody is diagnosed with PTSD because they were in a high conflict combat area, and somebody else who had some discomfort claims the same thing. So, because we have a bunch of people claiming PTSD, it really minimizes the importance we place on those who are really suffering.

                  I'm sure some of you have seen the signs that say something like "Combat Vet lives in this area - please consider this when deploying fireworks".
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    I know somebody who recently served in either Iraq or Afghanistan for a fairly significant amount of time. He is a decent Christian person... and he has been shocking me on Facebook. There is apparently a group of veterans who have been making fun of other veterans who express concerns about fireworks on their PTSD, calling them mostly names I can't repeat on this site... basically calling them feminine. This doesn't strike me as Christian behavior, but he insists that anybody who was not in the military does not have the right to defend the PTSD sufferers as they weren't there and don't understand the dynamics.

                    I understand the concern in general with wanting non-veterans not to criticize military issues, but am I the only person who thinks that this particular situation is taking it a bit far? I don't think military service excepts one from basic human decency.
                    While I do find some non military people don't quite get some of the issues of military people (I often have to translate things from military lingo to everyday English, when dealing with most members of my family or many church members), I'd have to agree with you on this one. If you want to set off fireworks, go ahead and do so, but be aware of those around you and if somebody would prefer you not do it around them, find somewhere else.
                    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                      While I do find some non military people don't quite get some of the issues of military people (I often have to translate things from military lingo to everyday English, when dealing with most members of my family or many church members), I'd have to agree with you on this one. If you want to set off fireworks, go ahead and do so, but be aware of those around you and if somebody would prefer you not do it around them, find somewhere else.
                      Or, talk to the guy (or gal) first, and explain you're wanting to have a party, and there will be fireworks, but you were concerned... it's quite possible they might insist you go ahead with your party because they're going to go spend some time with a relative, or whatever... or that it really doesn't bother them.

                      Sometimes just good honest communication goes a long way.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I just saw (or heard) a story earlier today (I was only half paying attention while working on mowers) where a vet with PTSD is putting on the fireworks show himself. He says he can handle it, because he knows exactly when the boom is going to happen, and because he's in charge, he knows he can stop it if he needs to.

                        Sounds like a pretty adaptable and smart guy!
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Or, talk to the guy (or gal) first, and explain you're wanting to have a party, and there will be fireworks, but you were concerned... it's quite possible they might insist you go ahead with your party because they're going to go spend some time with a relative, or whatever... or that it really doesn't bother them.

                          Sometimes just good honest communication goes a long way.
                          Yeah, but in modern America, it seems knowing your neighbors isn't something people take part in. Some of my neighbors seem to stay in their place all day and almost duck from view, to avoid being seen if they happen to walk out the door.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            Yeah, but in modern America, it seems knowing your neighbors isn't something people take part in.
                            I guess that's another reason I like Texas -- I know my neighbors, and all except the guy directly across the road, we all actually like each other, and help each other in times of need.

                            Some of my neighbors seem to stay in their place all day and almost duck from view, to avoid being seen if they happen to walk out the door.
                            That's sad.
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I guess that's another reason I like Texas -- I know my neighbors, and all except the guy directly across the road, we all actually like each other, and help each other in times of need.

                              That's sad.
                              Yeah, it is rather sad. I remember one that the husband was friendly, but the wife seemed to give me the, "Don't say anything" look whenever she was outside as though my mere presence, was a problem. Rather weird mentality. Perhaps she thought I was going to try something with her husband or something (despite the fact I was married at the time and have never been any kind of guy stealer anyway). Some people are just odd.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment

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