The Oklahoma Supreme Court rules against 10 Commndment monument

[seer]

The 'Supreme Court' façade demonstrates otherwise, and it is set in stone. Only Commandments VI through X are shown.

You just ignore my links and quotes, pout and stamp your feet. Tell me Shuny, why did all the first presidents, and founding fathers, swear their oaths of office on the Christian Bible. Why not the Koran? Or a copy of the Code of Hammurabi? Because, the bible had a special place in our history and national discourse that these others did not enjoy. Period. Anyway I tried, you have not changed so you are back on ignore - carry on...

[shunyadragon]

You just ignore my links and quotes, pout and stamp your feet. Tell me Shuny, why did all the first presidents, and founding fathers, swear their oaths of office on the Christian Bible. Why not the Koran?

Or a copy of the Code of Hammurabi? Because, the bible had a special place in our history and national discourse that these others did not enjoy. Period. Anyway I tried, you have not changed so you are back on ignore - carry on...

They used the Bible because they were Christian. If a Jew is elected to office he or she may use the Torah. If a Moslem is elected to office he or she may use the Koran.

[Roy]

There are no "buts". The US Constitution is a secular document. It was based upon English Common Law which derived from the Saxon settlement of England some two centuries before England became a Christian nation.

This is utter nonsense Tass. Alfred the Great was called the Father of English Common Law, and he took most of the principles directly from Scripture.

That is utter nonsense, as seer's own source shows:

About a fifth of the law code is taken up by Alfred's introduction, which includes translations into English of the Decalogue, a few chapters from the Book of Exodus, and the "Apostolic Letter" from Acts of the Apostles

"a fifth" is not "most".

Most of Alfred's "Doom book" was an amalgamation of codes of law from previous Saxon kingdoms, including that of Ethelbert of Kent who preceded Alfred by a couple of centuries, and whose law was based on a series of monetary fines for various transgressions.

Roy

[seer]

That is utter nonsense, as seer's own source shows: "a fifth" is not "most".

Can't you read Homer?

About a fifth of the law code is taken up by Alfred's introduction, which includes translations into English of the Decalogue, a few chapters from the Book of Exodus, and the "Apostolic Letter" from Acts of the Apostles (15:23–29). The Introduction may best be understood as Alfred's meditation upon the meaning of Christian law.[66] It traces the continuity between God's gift of Law to Moses to Alfred's own issuance of law to the West Saxon people. By doing so, it links the holy past to the historical present and represents Alfred's law-giving as a type of divine legislation.[67]

This is the reason that Alfred divided his code into precisely 120 chapters: 120 was the age at which Moses died and, in the number-symbolism of early medieval biblical exegetes, 120 stood for law.[68] The link between the Mosaic Law and Alfred's code is the "Apostolic Letter," which explained that Christ "had come not to shatter or annul the commandments but to fulfill them; and he taught mercy and meekness" (Intro, 49.1). The mercy that Christ infused into Mosaic Law underlies the injury tariffs that figure so prominently in barbarian law codes, since Christian synods "established, through that mercy which Christ taught, that for almost every misdeed at the first offence secular lords might with their permission receive without sin the monetary compensation, which they then fixed."[69]

The introduction is what was a fifth of the code, not that that was the only part of the code that contained Christian principles. It wasn't. And the introduction set the stage for what followed.

The Doom Book, Code of Alfred or Legal Code of Ælfred the Great was the code of laws ("dooms", laws or judgments) compiled by Alfred the Great (c. 893 AD) from three prior Saxon codes, to which he prefixed the Ten Commandments of Moses and incorporated rules of life from the Mosaic Code and the Christian code of ethics

.

Most of Alfred's "Doom book" was an amalgamation of codes of law from previous Saxon kingdoms, including that of Ethelbert of Kent who preceded Alfred by a couple of centuries, and whose law was based on a series of monetary fines for various transgressions.

Roy

Yes, three Christian Saxon kingdoms:

F. N. Lee extensively documents Alfred the Great's work of collecting the law codes from the three Christian Saxon kingdoms and compiling them into his Doom Book.[2] Lee details how Alfred incorporated the principles of the Mosaic law into his Code. He then examines how this Code of Alfred became the FOUNDATION for the Common Law. The three previous codes were those of Æthelberht of Kent (c. 602 AD), Ine of Wessex (c. 694 AD) and Offa of Mercia (c. 786 AD).

In his extensive Prologue, Alfred summarized the Mosaic and Christian codes. Michael Treschow reviewed how Alfred laid the foundation for the Spirit of Mercy in his code:[3] Treschow states that the last section of the Prologue not only describes "a tradition of Christian law from which the law code draws but also it grounds secular law upon Scripture, especially upon the principle of mercy".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_book

So to pretend that English Common law, and by extension US law, were not heavily influenced by Biblical law is just nonsense.

Here is one of Lee's papers if any one is interested:http://www.ensignmessage.com/archive...dthegreat.html

[Roy]

So to pretend that English Common law, and by extension US law, were not heavily influenced by Biblical law is just nonsense.

No-one is pretending any such thing. I agreed that Alfred's introduction was biblically based, and Shuny directly stated "Christianity influenced the development of Common Law and American Law"

Seer's actual claim was much, much stronger than English law being 'heavily influenced' by Biblical law:

Alfred the Great was called the Father of English Common Law, and he took most of the principles directly from Scripture.

That is false. Alfred took most of the principles from the law codes of Saxon kingdoms. Seer's own sources refute him.

Seer is being deceitful.

Roy

[seer]

Seer's actual claim was much, much stronger than English law being 'heavily influenced' by Biblical law:That is false. Alfred took most of the principles from the law codes of Saxon kingdoms. Seer's own sources refute him.

But the Saxon kingdoms were Christian:

F. N. Lee extensively documents Alfred the Great's work of collecting the law codes from the three Christian Saxon kingdoms and compiling them into his Doom Book.

And to quote Lee:

Significantly, the Preface to Alfred's own laws then closes with a very important statement about the provisions of the Christian Common Law of Britain before his own day. Here Alfred recalls especially the Christian laws made by the very first Saxon King in England to become christianized - Ethelbryte, alias the A.D. 540 Aethelberht King of Kent. Alfred then goes on to refer also to the A.D. 688 Wessex laws of the Christian King Ina in the South West of England, and to the A.D. 755 Mercian laws of the Christian King Offa of the Anglo-British Midlands. The latter were Anglo-Brythonic laws doubtless endorsed also by Alfred's Welsh friend Asser, the extremely learned Celto-Brythonic Scholar.

The Saxon laws he was speaking were were already Christian. You really do owe me an apology Roy.

[Bill the Cat]

Oklahoma lawmakers file amendment after Ten Commandments ruling

http://kfor.com/2015/07/06/oklahoma-...dments-ruling/

[Cow Poke]

Oklahoma lawmakers file amendment after Ten Commandments ruling

http://kfor.com/2015/07/06/oklahoma-...dments-ruling/

I kinda wondered if they'd do that, since the main difference between our "allowed" Ten, and OK's "disallowed" Ten was their own state Constitution.

[Tassman]

No-one is pretending any such thing. I agreed that Alfred's introduction was biblically based, and Shuny directly stated "Christianity influenced the development of Common Law and American Law"

Seer's actual claim was much, much stronger than English law being 'heavily influenced' by Biblical law:That is false. Alfred took most of the principles from the law codes of Saxon kingdoms. Seer's own sources refute him.

Seer is being deceitful.

Roy

Well one can always rely on seer for extravagant hyperbole. One simply cannot state without qualification that English law was 'heavily influenced' by Biblical law. The amount of influence Christianity had on Common Law is contentious. Jefferson didn't think it had much influence at all.

“In 1824…Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the English radical Major John Cartwright. The letter became celebrated because of its attack on the doctrine that Christianity was part and parcel of the law of the land. Separationists used the letter, which had been widely republished, to help support Jefferson's doctrine that "a wall of separation" should exist between church and state. Cartwright had reached the conclusion that no foundation existed for the doctrine of the common law's incorporation of Christianity, because he had a theory that the common law had existed before the Anglo-Saxons knew about Christianity. Jefferson sought to extend his argument. . . Jefferson thought the doctrine [that Christianity was part of the Common Law] was a sort of judicial "forgery"; the judges had "stole this law upon us," he said, describing the doctrine as "the most remarkable instance of judicial legislation, that has ever occurred in English jurisprudence or perhaps in any other”.

http://candst.tripod.com/joestor4.htm

[seer]

Well one can always rely on seer for extravagant hyperbole. One simply cannot state without qualification that English law was 'heavily influenced' by Biblical law. The amount of influence Christianity had on Common Law is contentious. Jefferson didn't think it had much influence at all.

http://candst.tripod.com/joestor4.htm

Yes Tass, and as I have shown we know much more today than they did in Jefferson's day. I presented clear links in my previous posts. Besides Tass, why do you think that all the states had Sabbath laws? Laws against adultery, sodomy, fornication, and even blasphemy laws? They weren't laws against blaspheming Odin. The Christian faith had a special historical place in the founding and development of this nation and should be recognized as such. If even only in a historical context. http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

[shunyadragon]

Yes Tass, and as I have shown we know much more today than they did in Jefferson's day. I presented clear links in my previous posts. Besides Tass, why do you think that all the states had Sabbath laws? Laws against adultery, sodomy, fornication, and even blasphemy laws? They weren't laws against blaspheming Odin. The Christian faith had a special historical place in the founding and development of this nation and should be recognized as such. If even only in a historical context. http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/

Many of these laws violated the separation of religion and state, and have since been found unconstitutional. The road to the separation of Religion and state has been a slow and sometimes contentious one, but in recent years more successful. Your still living in the past, and ignoring the lessons of modern law in the 'Supreme Court façade.

Blasphemy against God or Gods has always been a fundamental common law in all cultures. If you Blasphemed Odin in the old days; it was off with your head, burned alive, or maybe divided in four chained to horses was likely the punishment.

[seer]

Many of these laws violated the separation of religion and state, and have since been found unconstitutional. The road to the separation of Religion and state has been a slow and sometimes contentious one, but in recent years more successful. Your still living in the past, and ignoring the lessons of modern law in the 'Supreme Court façade.

Yes, modern liberal courts have found those things to be unconstitutional - the Founders who actually wrote the Constitution did not. Hey, we had Sabbath laws (blue laws) in my state until the early sixties and we did just fine. As did the US in general.

Blasphemy against God or Gods has always been a fundamental common law in all cultures. If you Blasphemed Odin in the old days; it was off with your head, burned alive, or maybe divided in four chained to horses was likely the punishment.

Not the point. The fact that we had Blasphemy laws against the Christian God shows how integral the Christian faith was in the US.

[Littlejoe]

Oklahoma lawmakers file amendment after Ten Commandments ruling

http://kfor.com/2015/07/06/oklahoma-...dments-ruling/

I kinda wondered if they'd do that, since the main difference between our "allowed" Ten, and OK's "disallowed" Ten was their own state Constitution.

A Satanic group is was hoping to put a Satanic Statue on public grounds before the OK Supreme court decision...now they are looking at Arkansas...

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — An Oklahoma Supreme Court ruling that will rid the Capitol grounds of a religious monument has simultaneously scuttled the plans of a group advocating for a Satanic statue there, and they now hope to enshrine the deity outside the Arkansas Statehouse.

The Satanic Temple, which advocates for the separation of church and state, spent more than $100,000 to design and construct an 8½-foot-tall bronze Baphomet, which depicts Satan as a goat-headed figure with horns, hooves, wings and a beard. With Oklahoma justices outlawing a Ten Commandments display from around its Capitol, The Satanic Temple has turned its attention to Arkansas, where lawmakers this year approved a similar Ten Commandments display on public land.

Source = http://news.yahoo.com/satanic-temple...203409173.html

[Cow Poke]

A Satanic group is was hoping to put a Satanic Statue on public grounds before the OK Supreme court decision...now they are looking at Arkansas...

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) — An Oklahoma Supreme Court ruling that will rid the Capitol grounds of a religious monument has simultaneously scuttled the plans of a group advocating for a Satanic statue there, and they now hope to enshrine the deity outside the Arkansas Statehouse.

The Satanic Temple, which advocates for the separation of church and state, spent more than $100,000 to design and construct an 8½-foot-tall bronze Baphomet, which depicts Satan as a goat-headed figure with horns, hooves, wings and a beard. With Oklahoma justices outlawing a Ten Commandments display from around its Capitol, The Satanic Temple has turned its attention to Arkansas, where lawmakers this year approved a similar Ten Commandments display on public land.

Source = http://news.yahoo.com/satanic-temple...203409173.html

Yeah, they've been threatening that in Texas for a couple years. It's funny that they insist it will be a "child friendly" satanic emblem.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

I'm wondering if it will include pea soup flowing from the mouth of a child.

[shunyadragon]

Yes, modern liberal courts have found those things to be unconstitutional - the Founders who actually wrote the Constitution did not. Hey, we had Sabbath laws (blue laws) in my state until the early sixties and we did just fine. As did the US in general.

The Blue Laws were religious laws and violations of the principle of the separation of religion and state. Unfortunately, your still living in the past. It is now the case that everyone can observe the Sabbath they believe in whether Friday, Saturday, Sunday or whatever without legal restraints forcing everyone to observe laws favoring only one religious Sabbath.

Not the point. The fact that we had Blasphemy laws against the Christian God shows how integral the Christian faith was in the US.

You are the one who mentions Odin I only gave a factual response.