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The Oklahoma Supreme Court rules against 10 Commndment monument

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  • #31
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Influence is very different. I never said that the Ten Commandments did not influence American Law.
    So tell me Shuny, what other set of moral codes influenced US law more than the Biblically based English Common law? And since Biblical law had such a profound influence why is it wrong to have the Ten Commandments on state property - it is a large part of our history.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #32
      How long before Christians will have to talk about the evil of the constitution and its moral errors?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by seer View Post
        So tell me Shuny, what other set of moral codes influenced US law more than the Biblically based English Common law? And since Biblical law had such a profound influence why is it wrong to have the Ten Commandments on state property - it is a large part of our history.
        First, Babylonian Code of Hammurabi is older and forms a foundation of Civilization Codes of Law. Vedic (Hindu) is older also, and these Codes of Law predate the Biblical Commandment,Deuteronomy, including the reader's digest version of the Ten Commandments. Codes of Law are common to all cultures, and Biblical Codes are just one of many similar.

        Greek and Roman Common Law clearly have older independent legal systems then Christianity, and independent of Jewish Commandments from Deuteronomy, which likely have older roots in Babylonian and Canaanite Law.

        English Common Law is older than Christian influence in Great Britain and has some of its roots in Celtic common law. Yes Christianity influenced the development of Common Law and American Law, but the whole story is more complex with different sources and cultures involved.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          How long before Christians will have to talk about the evil of the constitution and its moral errors?
          Depends if they oppose slavery I guess. The fifth sentence of the US constitution says slaves count as 3/5th of a person.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            Well well yes, but...
            There are no "buts". The US Constitution is a secular document. It was based upon English Common Law which derived from the Saxon settlement of England some two centuries before England became a Christian nation. As Jefferson says in his in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814: "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."

            http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html




            http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel05.html

            BTW Tass, you don't want to get into a quote war with me on this, I know way more about this subject than you.
            No amount of cherry-picked quotes in the mighty seer tradition can alter the fact that the US Constitution is, in and of itself, a secular document which at no point refers to God or Christianity.

            It can be reasonably inferred that the Founding Fathers intended to keep government separate from religion as can be seen by Jefferson's explicit reference in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association. Namely that there exists a "wall of separation between church and State". Madison also writes that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."

            As the Treaty of Tripoli makes clear: "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". There's absolutely no reason to think that this did not represent the overall view of the Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              First, Babylonian Code of Hammurabi is older and forms a foundation of Civilization Codes of Law. Vedic (Hindu) is older also, and these Codes of Law predate the Biblical Commandment,Deuteronomy, including the reader's digest version of the Ten Commandments. Codes of Law are common to all cultures, and Biblical Codes are just one of many similar.

              Greek and Roman Common Law clearly have older independent legal systems then Christianity, and independent of Jewish Commandments from Deuteronomy, which likely have older roots in Babylonian and Canaanite Law.

              English Common Law is older than Christian influence in Great Britain and has some of its roots in Celtic common law. Yes Christianity influenced the development of Common Law and American Law, but the whole story is more complex with different sources and cultures involved.
              The question was Shuny, how much actual influence did those other moral codes have on US law? And since you agree that Biblical law did influence US law why then would it be wrong to have the Ten Commandments on state property. Even if only as an historical reference?

              I mean isn't Moses with the Ten Commandments at the center of the facade over the Supreme Court:


              Supreme_court_east_facade.jpg
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                There are no "buts". The US Constitution is a secular document. It was based upon English Common Law which derived from the Saxon settlement of England some two centuries before England became a Christian nation. As Jefferson says in his in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814: "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
                This is utter nonsense Tass. Alfred the Great was called the Father of English Common Law, and he took most of the principles directly from Scripture. We know a lot more history today than they did in 1814:

                INTRODUCTORY REMARKS ABOUT KING ALFRED'S LAW CODE

                However, Alfred's most important work was certainly his Law Code. It is preceded by a long introduction. (12) This contains translations not only of the Ten Commandments, but also of many other passages from the book af Exodus.(13) It is followed by an excerpt from Christ's Sermon an the Mount (14) and by a brief account of apostolic history (with quotations from the apostolic book of Acts). (15) There, Alfred stresses the jots and tittles alias the minutiae of God's Law and His Prophets (Matthew 5:17); the Golden Rule (Matthew 7:12); and the God-inspired decision af the First General Assembly of the Christian Church - in order to teach God's Law and His Prophets (Amos 9:11) as well as His Gospel also in the congregations of Christ (Acts 15:15-29 & 16:4f).
                http://www.ensignmessage.com/archive...dthegreat.html


                About a fifth of the law code is taken up by Alfred's introduction, which includes translations into English of the Decalogue, a few chapters from the Book of Exodus, and the "Apostolic Letter" from Acts of the Apostles (15:23–29). The Introduction may best be understood as Alfred's meditation upon the meaning of Christian law.[66] It traces the continuity between God's gift of Law to Moses to Alfred's own issuance of law to the West Saxon people. By doing so, it links the holy past to the historical present and represents Alfred's law-giving as a type of divine legislation.[67]

                This is the reason that Alfred divided his code into precisely 120 chapters: 120 was the age at which Moses died and, in the number-symbolism of early medieval biblical exegetes, 120 stood for law.[68] The link between the Mosaic Law and Alfred's code is the "Apostolic Letter," which explained that Christ "had come not to shatter or annul the commandments but to fulfill them; and he taught mercy and meekness" (Intro, 49.1). The mercy that Christ infused into Mosaic Law underlies the injury tariffs that figure so prominently in barbarian law codes, since Christian synods "established, through that mercy which Christ taught, that for almost every misdeed at the first offence secular lords might with their permission receive without sin the monetary compensation, which they then fixed."[69]
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred...on_and_culture



                No amount of cherry-picked quotes in the mighty seer tradition can alter the fact that the US Constitution is, in and of itself, a secular document which at no point refers to God or Christianity.
                I did not say that the Constitution established a Christian religion, but I did prove that the Early congresses did support, with tax dollars, the Christian religion. And that the Founders, even Jefferson, believed that religion was absolutely necessary to maintain a free and moral nation.

                It can be reasonably inferred that the Founding Fathers intended to keep government separate from religion as can be seen by Jefferson's explicit reference in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association. Namely that there exists a "wall of separation between church and State". Madison also writes that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."
                Danbury is in my state. When Jefferson wrote this we had a tax payer supported state Church, as did many states at the time. And the states were free to do so. You can not minimize the Christian influence on the laws and character of this nation - as hard as you might try.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  The question was Shuny, how much actual influence did those other moral codes have on US law? And since you agree that Biblical law did influence US law why then would it be wrong to have the Ten Commandments on state property. Even if only as an historical reference?
                  Yes, the issue is how much influence. I demonstrated that the influence is broader and older than just the 'Ten Commandments'. I do not believe that placing the 'Ten Commandments' alone is more than just a historical reference.

                  I mean isn't Moses with the Ten Commandments at the center of the facade over the Supreme Court:


                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]7849[/ATTACH]
                  Yes. but the façade, and the Interior of the Supreme Court is more inclusive of the sources of influence of American Law as witnessed by history:

                  Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Supreme_Court_Building



                  Courtroom friezes: The South Wall Frieze includes figures of lawgivers from the ancient world and includes Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, and Augustus. The North Wall Frieze shows lawgivers from the Middle Ages on and includes representations of Justinian, Muhammad, Charlemagne, John of England, Louis IX of France, Hugo Grotius, Sir William Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon. The Moses frieze depicts him holding the Ten Commandments, although only commandments six through ten, usually considered the more secular commands, are visible. In 1997, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) asked for the image of Muhammad to be removed from the marble frieze of the façade. While appreciating that Muhammad was included in the court's pantheon of 18 prominent lawgivers of history, CAIR noted that Islam discourages depictions of Muhammad in any artistic representation. CAIR also objected that Muhammad was shown with a sword, which they thought reinforced long-held stereotypes of Muslims as intolerant conquerors. Chief Justice William Rehnquist rejected the request to sandblast Muhammad, saying the artwork "was intended only to recognize him, among many other lawgivers, as an important figure in the history of law; it is not intended as a form of idol worship". The court later added a footnote to tourist materials, calling it "a well-intentioned attempt by the sculptor to honor Muhammad".

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  There have been objections of Muhammad being portrayed with a sword, but in many depiction of statues concerning justice, the sword is included as implement of justice. It is true that the sword can cut two ways in human hands, for justice and evil, but the depictions on numerous statues in the capital and elsewhere it is for justice.

                  In the Baha'i writings the sword is described in reality as cutting two ways; one heals and one destroys.
                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2015, 07:32 AM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Yes, the issue is how much influence. I demonstrated that the influence is broader and older than just the 'Ten Commandments'. I do not believe that placing the 'Ten Commandments' alone is more than just a historical reference.

                    Yes, but you have not demonstrated how much influence these other moral codes actually had on our laws. We know that Biblical law had a profound influence through English common law and in the laws of the first 13 states. That is why they had laws against working on the Sabbath, Blasphemy, sodomy, adultery, fornication and homosexuality in general, etc...
                    Last edited by seer; 07-06-2015, 08:35 AM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      As the Treaty of Tripoli makes clear: "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion". There's absolutely no reason to think that this did not represent the overall view of the Founding Fathers at the beginning of the American government.
                      Yet Adams also said this:

                      The general Principles, on which the Fathers Atchieved Independence, were the only Principles in which, that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen9 could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their Address, or by me in my Answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity,10 in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities Sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

                      Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God: and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.
                      http://founders.archives.gov/documen.../03-06-02-0208

                      So according to Adams it was the Principles of Christianity that lead to Independence, and that these principles were eternal and immutable.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Yes, but you have not demonstrated how much influence these other moral codes actually had on our laws. We know that Biblical law had a profound influence through English common law and in the laws of the first 13 states. That is why they had laws against working on the Sabbath, Blasphemy, sodomy, adultery, fornication and homosexuality in general, etc...
                        You have not demonstrated that the influence is more than many other sources as cited on the façade of the Supreme Court. All I have demonstrated is that there are many sources that influenced American Law some much more ancient, some more recent. IF the monument showed the Commandments VI through X that indeed influence American Law than of course it would be an acceptable monument like the façade of the Supreme Court.

                        Actually the source, 'Supreme Court' façade you brought up is an important point for my view, and that of the 'Supreme Court,' as to what is appropriate for a monument on state property.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2015, 08:57 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          You have not demonstrated that the influence is more than many other sources as cited on the façade of the Supreme Court. All I have demonstrated is that there are many sources that influenced American Law some much more ancient, some more recent. IF the monument showed the Commandments VI through X that indeed influence American Law than of course it would be an acceptable monument like the façade of the Supreme Court.
                          Utter nonsense Shuny. I have shown Biblical law in English Common Law, I have shown Biblical law on the state level. You have not shown one law from any of these other codes, and you have not shown how much if any influence they had on our law. And if you don't I will give Biblical law primacy - hence the Ten Commandments deserve a historical place in our national history. No other moral code had nearly the same influence.
                          Last edited by seer; 07-06-2015, 09:48 AM.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Utter nonsense Shuny. I have shown Biblical law in English Common Law, I have shown Biblical law on the state level.
                            No you have not seer, and the façade of the Supreme Court does not support your assertion. Showing there is influence, does not demonstrate that it is the dominant influence by any stretch of the imagination.

                            You have not shown one law from any of these other codes, and you have not shown how much if any influence they had on our law. And if you don't I will give Biblical law primacy - hence the Ten Commandments deserve a historical place in our national history. No other moral code had nearly the same influence.
                            Sure you can assert anything, but the façade of the Supreme Court building demonstrates otherwise, and shows no one source as the dominant influence.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              No you have not seer, and the façade of the Supreme Court does not support your assertion. Showing there is influence, does not demonstrate that it is the dominant influence by any stretch of the imagination.
                              Really? English Common laws was not dominate? And English was grounded in Biblical principles: see my links in post 18. Never mind state laws against things line working on the Sabbath and Blasphemy. I also showed that the early congresses supported the Christian religion by tax dollars, post 13. And that Christian principles were key to Independence, And let me quote.

                              1813, June 28: Adams to Jefferson

                              http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/...ffersoncor.pdf

                              The general Principles, on which the Fathers Achieved Independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite . . . . And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all those Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.
                              You have no other moral code that comes close to this influence, if you do please post it or hold your peace. Because again Shuny, you have no idea what you are talking about.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Really? English Common laws was not dominate? And English was grounded in Biblical principles: see my links in post 18. Never mind state laws against things line working on the Sabbath and Blasphemy. I also showed that the early congresses supported the Christian religion by tax dollars, post 13. And that Christian principles were key to Independence, And let me quote.

                                1813, June 28: Adams to Jefferson

                                http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/...ffersoncor.pdf



                                You have no other moral code that comes close to this influence, if you do please post it or hold your peace. Because again Shuny, you have no idea what you are talking about.
                                The 'Supreme Court' façade demonstrates otherwise, and it is set in stone. Only Commandments VI through X are shown. The Constitution evolves and changes with time, and an increased emphasis on the separation of religion and state. You're still living in the past.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-06-2015, 10:53 AM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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