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SCOTUS Rules 5-4 for Gay Marriage

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
    In cases where the free exercise of religion is being impinged upon, I'll be right next to Christians arguing against such unconstitutional actions. However, these cases seem to be far fewer than many Christians believe.
    Um, yeah.... my own arrest on three warrants and my spending nearly $20,000 in legal fees is just a figment of my imagination, and I should be comforted by the notion that "this doesn't happen very often".

    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Um, yeah.... my own arrest on three warrants and my spending nearly $20,000 in legal fees is just a figment of my imagination, and I should be comforted by the notion that "this doesn't happen very often".
      I never said that it was a figment of your imagination. Nor did I ever imply that such things do not happen. What I stated was that I stand in solidarity against the prevention of the free-exercise of religion; but that many people are under the impression that such impositions occur far more often than they actually do.
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
        That particular bogeyman has never been a real issue. Only the barest fringe of marriage equality supporters want to force religious institutions to perform ceremonies against their will, and those who argue for such a notion are rightly denounced as quacks by the rest of us.
        From what I see here in UK, the Church is their next battle. They are not going to stop.

        Comment


        • #34
          Live look-in at TWeb:

          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Abigail View Post
            From what I see here in UK, the Church is their next battle. They are not going to stop.
            The UK has a State Church. This, again, is a very different monster from a government which is explicitly prevented from regulating the free-exercise of religion.
            "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
            --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              The UK has a State Church. This, again, is a very different monster from a government which is explicitly prevented from regulating the free-exercise of religion.
              And yet, the prohibition of free exercise continues, regardless of your ignorance of it.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                Live look-in at TWeb:

                More like our continuing realization of this court...

                ron-white-quotes-1.jpg
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                  I never said that it was a figment of your imagination. Nor did I ever imply that such things do not happen. What I stated was that I stand in solidarity against the prevention of the free-exercise of religion; but that many people are under the impression that such impositions occur far more often than they actually do.
                  Oh, so as long as discrimination doesn't happen A LOT, it's not really discrimination? Or, because an offense occurs only SOMETIMES, it doesn't count?

                  I hope that sounded better in your head.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    And yet, the prohibition of free exercise continues, regardless of your ignorance of it.
                    All it really takes to stop free exercise of religion is breaking a law while doing so. Don't believe me? Try reviving the Aztec religion and see how far you get.
                    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                    sigpic
                    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      And yet, the prohibition of free exercise continues, regardless of your ignorance of it.
                      Again, I have not denied this. When the government illicitly impinges upon Free Speech, I oppose it. When the government illicitly impinges upon Firearms Ownership, I oppose it. And, similarly, when the government illicitly impinges upon the Free-Exercise of Religion, I oppose it. The fact that the government sometimes oversteps its bounds does not imply that the government is therefore likely to do so on grand scales.
                      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Not really. They are ignoring prior precedent and using the same tired excuses and interpretations they have been using for the last decade.
                        I don't think they ignored precedent here. In fact, precedent backs them up, as far as I can tell. Loving v. Virginia, in particular. The Supreme Court made interracial marriage legal across the land. Chief justice Earl Warren said:

                        "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State."

                        Sound kinda familiar? You're not going to find too many people today who disagree with that decision. In fact, I suspect that the large majority considers it to be a good decision. And if that was an appropriate constitutional decision regarding marriage, the same-sex decision should be as well, as far as I can tell.
                        Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Irate Canadian View Post
                          ...there must be a major concession to religious Churches and organizations allowing them not to be forced to perform ceremonies that are against their will.
                          Never going to happen. Now that we have a Supreme Court who rules by fiat and has declared gay marriage a Constitutional right, America's churches will be powerless in the face of the inevitable lawsuits, and many churches will be forced to close their doors. This is a game changer for America, and effects are going to be devastating.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Irate Canadian View Post
                            I'm going to voice a unpopular opinion here. I feel gay marriage should be legalized, however, there must be a major concession to religious Churches and organizations allowing them not to be forced to perform ceremonies that are against their will.
                            Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
                            That particular bogeyman has never been a real issue. Only the barest fringe of marriage equality supporters want to force religious institutions to perform ceremonies against their will, and those who argue for such a notion are rightly denounced as quacks by the rest of us.

                            The only people who should be "forced" to provide marriage licenses are those who work in the public offices which issue marriage licenses, and only because that is literally their job.
                            I agree and don't even think a concession is required or that this will be an issue. The very same freedom of religion that allows some to recognize gay marriage also allows other churches to not recognize such. But, as a matter of religious belief, this is a different issue from laws regulating commerce and against discrimination on the part of businesses.
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Um, yeah.... my own arrest on three warrants and my spending nearly $20,000 in legal fees is just a figment of my imagination, and I should be comforted by the notion that "this doesn't happen very often".

                              I've never heard this story. What happened?

                              Never mind. I found the story:

                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              ... I, myself, was a victim of dirty politics back in the mid to late 70's. I was on the forefront of the Christian Homeschool movement, and there were actually Christians being arrested for violating Texas' "public attendance law". There is, in truth, no such law. We have a "public education law", but it does not forbid the the required education from occurring in a "homeschool". In fact, the law was very vague on that point.

                              I actually met with our superintendent of schools to discuss some issues with some of our homeschoolers in our county. I was assured we can "work things out", and "there should be no problem".

                              The very next morning, I was notified that three warrants had been issued for my arrest. I was being arrested for violation of the bogus "public attendance law", and advised that these charges would "go away" if I backed down from my "activism". It was intimidation, pure and simple. But I don't intimidate very easily - I just get mad. And I prepared to fight. It ultimately cost me my job, and about $17,000 in legal fees, and I was never even allowed to go to court. The prosecutor kept making excuses for the delay of trial, but I had been arrested on those three warrants, even though we had invoked Texas' "speedy trial law". I was guaranteed a trial within 90 days, but it never happened.

                              Amazingly, public opinion went overwhelmingly WITH me because it became obvious that the prosecutor had really screwed up. The Texas School Law Bulletin (the applicable law) didn't allow a second charge until the first charge had been proven, and they charged me with three offenses all at once. And it became clear that they lied about the "compulsory attendance law", because that wasn't even in the TSLB.

                              Long story short, they granted me a "permanent continuance". There is no such thing in Texas - it was their way of trying to sweep the case under the rug without allowing me to go to trial, so I still have an "arrest record", but no conviction. No exoneration, either. And, again, it cost me my job and $17,000.

                              So this is why I don't trust the politicians or the legal system to play fair. The Constitution that Sam keeps referring to did NOTHING for me, even though I was CLEARLY in the right. There was absolutely no just cause for the warrants to be filed. But that didn't stop the prosecutor from trying to intimidate me. Initially, they were all prepared to send me to jail - they even threatened that my daughters would be taken away from me by social services. It was ugly. Nasty. As the case drew public attention, one by one the prosecutors backed away, pointing to the Attorney General of Texas as the cause for all this. ...
                              Last edited by robrecht; 06-26-2015, 10:54 AM.
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Oh, so as long as discrimination doesn't happen A LOT, it's not really discrimination? Or, because an offense occurs only SOMETIMES, it doesn't count?

                                I hope that sounded better in your head.
                                I'm really wondering if you are actually reading my posts. I explicitly stated that it is wrong for the government to prevent the free-exercise of religion. At no point did I ever imply that it's "not really discrimination" or that it "doesn't count" because it occurs less often than perceived.

                                You're attacking a viewpoint which I have not proffered.
                                "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
                                --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

                                Comment

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