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SCOTUS Rules 5-4 for Gay Marriage

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  • shunyadragon
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I think this is part of a greater Spiritual problem, not a political one. I think the "Providence of God" is being removed from our Nation because we, as a nation, have turned our backs on Him. We are, in that regard, becoming Europe.
    I believe the important issue here is the separation of religion and state. In the same theme I do not believe the law will require churches and religions to perform gay marriages.

    There is another issue that has bothered me for many years is the problem of the division in the Supreme Court and other Institutions of Law and Justice along divisive religious/political grounds, and not the neutral agenda of unbiased Justice. There have been to many 5-4 decisions of the Supreme Court decisions both ways based on these divisions.

    Leave a comment:


  • firstfloor
    replied
    Originally posted by Kristian Joensen View Post
    Time for states to start repealing all their marriage laws and all references to marriage in the law? Defunding the issuing of marriage licenses? Removing all other restrictions? For Christians to boycott government marriage entirely?
    Marriage is principally a legal contract between spouses. ‘Holy matrimony’ is the often popular but inessential dressing over the legalities. It provides a different layer of meaning for religious people. Marriage happens in all cultures not just Christian ones and it is not exclusively a religious phenomena. Christians are not entitled to dictate who should not be married.

    Leave a comment:


  • mossrose
    replied
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    If a pastor voluntarily chooses to take a job working for the city/county/province/state, it is reasonable that the city/county/province/state to be able to set certain conditions about what that job entails. Any pastor who doesn't like the job is obviously free not to take it. I've got no sympathy for whiners who refuse to do the job they're being employed to do.

    That's just totally different to the notion of the government forcing pastors to perform same-sex marriages against their will in their own churches.
    As I said in my post, it makes no difference if a pastor is working for a church or a civil government. If it goes against what he believes, and he is forced to do it or face firing, or even prosecution, it is horribly wrong. And it is already here.

    The rest of the articles you cite in that post are about hate-speech... good bar-shifting, littlepixieofterror would be proud.
    No clue what you are talking about. The articles ARE about hate-speech, which, as I said in my post, is a huge part of the root of the problem.

    No. You're misreading it. The guy is suggesting that as a possible future scenario that he thinks might happen.
    You are right. Sorry. However, the lines are being drawn and it is getting worse. You can talk around it all you like, but it will make no difference in the long run, regardless of how much you deny it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leonhard
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Sounds like the Church of Denmark is already dead.
    Well... all protestants Churches aren't exactly doing well. Though I think all Christians, anyone who believes in the Creed and respect the Holy Scripture can be united against these changes in the world.

    But it it depends on where you are in the country. Largely, yes... but down south towards Germany, and out at the west coast, they're still very conservative. The faith is dying in Denmark though. Protestant, Catholic... I hear the Muslims are slowly liberalising as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    There are such things as sacred places. These places have been used to venerate and worship God. Catholic believe in the sacramental nature of things, that they can be blessed, consecrated, and set aside for holy actions. Furthermore (I'm not expecting you to agree with this) but we believe that Christ is actually present under the appearance of bread, in the most holy sacrament.

    Would you force Christ to be present during a public scandal like a gay wedding?

    That's what I'm worried about. It has solutions, we can start locking the doors more... people won't be able to walk in as easy as before. It won't be much different, we already have to lock them a lot because people have damaged them.
    The sacredness of a place is reliant on the people who inhabit it, and the God they worship. I think the Hagia Sophia is absolutely magnificent, but it hasn't been a truly sacred place for centuries.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Why? And why make it part of their identity? That's just plain silly/sad.
    Spiritual darkness.

    Leave a comment:


  • Starlight
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    I'm certain that the societal discrimination of all sorts of sinful pet behavior leads to high levels of hurt feelings and self-destructive behavior.
    Stigmas against behaviors alone and stigmas against minority social groups have significantly different psychological impacts and social effects. (And those effects obviously depend on what the victims perceive the situation to be, not on how the majority intends their actions to be perceived. So the 'well I don't intend it in that kind of way' defense is irrelevant.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Leonhard
    replied
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Well that is a much more reasonable concern. I don't think the dust has fully settled on the issue of marriage venues.
    As I said, its law in Denmark that all Church of Denmark buildings can be used for such purposes. Thankfully this does not apply to all Churches not directly affiliated with the government. And I hope it stays that way. And I doubt it will be a problem in Denmark since there's not that many classically beautiful Catholic parishes in Denmark, about three. So here I don't foresee it becoming a problem... other places might be more of a concern.

    But I can foresee various countries striking different balances about the extent to which Churches can be allowed to discriminate between same-sex and opposite-sex couples when they hire out their church as a wedding venue.
    I could respect that law if it was formulated correct. For example a porn theater can't declare itself a Church to avoid taxes (one did try that). Likewise a public marriage venue can't declare itself a Church to circumvent that law, because its owners happen to be Christians. However... well established parishes in Churches that are morally committed against this view, should be allowed the freedom to only allow the marriages they approve, even if the people coming there pays them for it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    There are many reasons why I left the Church of Denmark.

    I don't think they have it in them to resist. Two-thirds of the priests now regularly practice, and endorse homosexual weddings. You have to understand that the thing is more a social institution at this point. The church buildings are beautiful, but the people coming to them are so utterly disconnected from the spirituality that's going on. In a thin-tea gruel kind of vague social kindness and talk about love of neighbor.

    We've had several priests outright say that they don't believe in God.

    Several parts of the government are of course starting to ask the question of why they're supporting this costly venture of maintaining these old church buildings. There is some support qua it being part of our cultural identity, but that's that. There's several right wing parties who want to disassociate the Church from the State, but not for religious reasons.

    In principle I think a union of the government and the true Church would be ideal. There is no union, the government considers the Church one of its 'projects', subject to the democratic process, not a genuine part of it.

    On principle I'm against separating the government of a country, from religion. However, I wouldn't mind seeing the Church of Denmark liberated, however what would happen is quite simple that it would die. It would not be able to support itself for more than a year or two. If push came to shove, all the few remaining members would leave.

    Its one of many reasons why I became Catholic.
    Sounds like the Church of Denmark is already dead.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    It is well documented that cumulative experiences of prejudice and discrimination lead to a high level of suicide in minority groups. This is generally a significant motivation for the enactment of hate-speech laws that limit the degree people are allowed to say negative things in public about minority groups. The perpetuation of false negative stereotypes of minorities can also incite persecution and instances of violence against them.
    I'm certain that the societal discrimination of all sorts of sinful pet behavior leads to high levels of hurt feelings and self-destructive behavior. We love sinners because we too were once lost in our sin. I thank God (on a very personal level) that Christ has an open door policy to those who ask for forgiveness, and repent of their sins. Through him we are more than conquerors. There is now no more condemnation, no more self-doubt, no more suicide to those who turn their face fully to Christ, but rather a more than abundant life awaits us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leonhard
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Let em have em. From a historical perspective, it'd be sad to see, but God doesn't live in a building. He's bigger than that.
    There are such things as sacred places. These places have been used to venerate and worship God. Catholic believe in the sacramental nature of things, that they can be blessed, consecrated, and set aside for holy actions. Furthermore (I'm not expecting you to agree with this) but we believe that Christ is actually present under the appearance of bread, in the most holy sacrament.

    Would you force Christ to be present during a public scandal like a gay wedding?

    That's what I'm worried about. It has solutions, we can start locking the doors more... people won't be able to walk in as easy as before. It won't be much different, we already have to lock them a lot because people have damaged them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
    Because They hate the TRUTH. they want to call evil good and good evil.
    Why? And why make it part of their identity? That's just plain silly/sad.

    Leave a comment:


  • Starlight
    replied
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    I'm more worried about the Catholic Church buildings suddenly being declared public venues because they're often open to the public, and therefore 'a place you can have a wedding'. And since its a nice wedding place, its what it looks like in the movies... I can imagine a googly eyed couple out there who wants a flowery wedding in a place with statues of saints and angels, and painted windows.
    Well that is a much more reasonable concern. I don't think the dust has fully settled on the issue of marriage venues.

    I can't seriously foresee any country ever forcing all clergy to officiate same-sex marriages against their will. But I can foresee various countries striking different balances about the extent to which Churches can be allowed to discriminate between same-sex and opposite-sex couples when they hire out their church as a wedding venue. I have been thus far unable to determine what the law actually is in my own country on that subject!

    Leave a comment:


  • Leonhard
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Is there any chance that the Church of Denmark would disassociate itself from the central government? And if not over this particular issue (gay marriage), how far would the secular legal system have to move for such a dissociation to occur?
    There are many reasons why I left the Church of Denmark.

    I don't think they have it in them to resist. Two-thirds of the priests now regularly practice, and endorse homosexual weddings. You have to understand that the thing is more a social institution at this point. The church buildings are beautiful, but the people coming to them are so utterly disconnected from the spirituality that's going on. In a thin-tea gruel kind of vague social kindness and talk about love of neighbor.

    We've had several priests outright say that they don't believe in God.

    Several parts of the government are of course starting to ask the question of why they're supporting this costly venture of maintaining these old church buildings. There is some support qua it being part of our cultural identity, but that's that. There's several right wing parties who want to disassociate the Church from the State, but not for religious reasons.

    In principle I think a union of the government and the true Church would be ideal. There is no union, the government considers the Church one of its 'projects', subject to the democratic process, not a genuine part of it.

    On principle I'm against separating the government of a country, from religion. However, I wouldn't mind seeing the Church of Denmark liberated, however what would happen is quite simple that it would die. It would not be able to support itself for more than a year or two. If push came to shove, all the few remaining members would leave.

    Its one of many reasons why I became Catholic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Adrift
    replied
    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
    I'm more worried about the Catholic Church buildings suddenly being declared public venues because they're often open to the public, and therefore 'a place you can have a wedding'. And since its a nice wedding place, its what it looks like in the movies... I can imagine a googly eyed couple out there who wants a flowery wedding in a place with statues of saints and angels, and painted windows.
    Let em have em. From a historical perspective, it'd be sad to see, but God doesn't live in a building. He's bigger than that.

    Leave a comment:

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