Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

[Bill the Cat]

What did you not understand?

Do you believe that those sales are sustainable, or that they were caused by anything other than the current overreaction to Walmart getting rid of what's widely considered a symbol of hate?

That level isn't, but sales will remain robust for quite some time. Removing them from inventory serves no purpose other than cheap political points.

[Adrift]

What did you not understand?

I wasn't expressing lack of understanding. Just doesn't seem like there's much I can say that will get you to change your mind on the issue.

[shunyadragon]

For some leaders, yes. But for the general population, no. Again, as I stated in my first post here, slavery was not a white master/black slave thing. Were it an issue of outright white supremacy, people like South Carolina former slave William Ellison would not have been able to build the cotton empire he built, and whites would not have done business with him.

Source: http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm

Ellison was so successful, due to his utilization of cheap slave labor, that many white competitors went out of business. Such situations discredit impressions that whites dealt only with other whites. Where money was involved, it was apparent that neither Ellison's race or former status were considerations.

© Copyright Original Source

You really need to read that article Shuny. It shows just how successful freed blacks were, which would have been impossible had "white supremacy" been the sole reason for the South to secede.

Read again, "white supremacy" was an important issue in those cited. You say 'some.' I cited many. You need to come up with better more specific references to support your case. ALL the references in the article from the different states cited slavery as the important issue to leave the Union.

Freed blacks only represented a very small percentage of the population.

I read the article, you're ignoring the fact that preservation of the 'Institution of Slavery' was the primary reason for the economic and political interests of the South for the Civil War. I never said it was the only reason. Many of the enlisted men in the ranks primarily fought for their 'State.' The ranks of enlisted men did not start the war. Those in control of the economic and political interests of the South I cited started the war.

[Bill the Cat]

I wasn't expressing lack of understanding. Just doesn't seem like there's much I can say that will get you to change your mind on the issue.

I grew up in the East end of Richmond. I made it a point to know what I was talking about because of the history of where I grew up. There is a museum not too far from where I live that has a memorial plaque for Anthony Johnson. I visit the museum infrequently, but more than a dozen times since I became an adult. I find the looks on the faces of people reading the plaque rather interesting. The whispers "There were BLACK slave masters???" from both black and white visitors. it has helped frame my opinion on the entire issue. Slavery was a horrible undertaking, and it is a very good thing that it has been outlawed here in the US, but it is FAR more than just about race. Until people can see past white/black, then they will never see the real truth behind it, and true healing can happen.

[Adrift]

I grew up in the East end of Richmond. I made it a point to know what I was talking about because of the history of where I grew up. There is a museum not too far from where I live that has a memorial plaque for Anthony Johnson. I visit the museum infrequently, but more than a dozen times since I became an adult. I find the looks on the faces of people reading the plaque rather interesting. The whispers "There were BLACK slave masters???" from both black and white visitors. it has helped frame my opinion on the entire issue. Slavery was a horrible undertaking, and it is a very good thing that it has been outlawed here in the US, but it is FAR more than just about race. Until people can see past white/black, then they will never see the real truth behind it, and true healing can happen.

For the record, I knew that there were black slave holders, and also that there were plenty of people black slaves that loved their white masters. I also know that there was a history of Irish indentured servitude that many today consider a form of slavery, so we have plenty of cases of both blacks owning blacks, and whites owning whites. That knowledge, though, doesn't erase from my mind that the Confederate flag symbolizes slavery. Arguably, that may have not been it's intended meaning when it was created, but it's come to represent it. Proudly flying it in the face of people who find it offensive, who connotate it with the evils of slavery, and with racism isn't going to help matters. Isn't going to heal hurts. Isn't doing anything but cementing both sides into their respective positions.

[Bill the Cat]

For the record, I knew that there were black slave holders, and also that there were plenty of people black slaves that loved their white masters. I also know that there was a history of Irish indentured servitude that many today consider a form of slavery, so we have plenty of cases of both blacks owning blacks, and whites owning whites.

Good. Then you realize it is NOT a race issue. That's half the battle.

That knowledge, though, doesn't erase from my mind that the Confederate flag symbolizes slavery.

Does the US flag symbolize armed treason against England? Because that's what the US was born from. Why does it stand for "freedom"? Because the victors get to make the rules. You need to ask yourself WHY it symbolizes slavery in your mind when you acknowledge that slavery transcended the CSA.

Arguably, that may have not been it's intended meaning when it was created, but it's come to represent it.

Maybe where you are from. But t doesn't where I do, at least not with those who support it. So, why do those who oppose it get to dictate its meaning?

Proudly flying it in the face of people who find it offensive, who connotate it with the evils of slavery, and with racism isn't going to help matters.

And taking it down isn't going to resolve the deeper issues. After all, people don't fly it just because it is a cool looking piece of cloth.

Isn't going to heal hurts.

When you force someone to do something, that isn't healing either.

Isn't doing anything but cementing both sides into their respective positions.

That will continue no matter what is done with the flag.

[Cow Poke]

My real issue with the White House website is the audacity for Obama to claim himself as a staunch ally for the cause given his platform in 2008. But it doesn't seem to bother anybody on that side of the issue.

He's "leading from behind" - when he sees which way the crowd is running, he gets right out there in front.

[Catholicity]

The Stupid in Shuny's Post hurts.... so does the refusal to recognize detail. Omitting details is why liberals get their way. The omit it, put a stamp on it, people don't bother to research anything for themselves and blindly follow in ignorance.

[Teallaura]

That the flag is just a confederate flag, and not thecerate flag, is still irrelevant

Not to us, it isn't. Displaying the flag is a First Amendment issue. The courts have always held that the speaker is the authority on the meaning of their own speech. It means what the person or group displaying it says they mean by it unless you can prove they intended it to mean something else.

I mucked up your message in the quote by accident and can't fix it from my phone. My apologies for that.

[Adrift]

Does the US flag symbolize armed treason against England? Because that's what the US was born from.

Yes?

Why does it stand for "freedom"? Because the victors get to make the rules.

Yep.

You need to ask yourself WHY it symbolizes slavery in your mind when you acknowledge that slavery transcended the CSA.

Because, in large part, that's what the Confederacy fought to retain.

Maybe where you are from. But t doesn't where I do, at least not with those who support it. So, why do those who oppose it get to dictate its meaning?

For the same reason that the victors of WWII get to dictate the meaning of the Nazi flag. Again, to those who saluted it, that flag didn't represent six million Jews dead, or even world domination. It represented pride, unity, strength, and it was a monument to those who had fallen. To those who fought against it, it represented something sinister, and something that had to be put down. Yes, the victors get to decide what symbols mean, and right or wrong, for 150 years the rebel flag has been associated with hate, and racism. That's the facts.

And taking it down isn't going to resolve the deeper issues. After all, people don't fly it just because it is a cool looking piece of cloth.

Sure it will. Symbols are powerful tools.

When you force someone to do something, that isn't healing either.

Who's forcing anyone to do anything in this case?

That will continue no matter what is done with the flag.

I don't think so. Who's more approachable? The guy wearing a Klan hood, or the one who isn't? It's hard to even think about beginning a dialogue with someone when they're literally wearing a symbol on their sleeves that conveys hatred to you. I might be able to find common ground with a racist . Might even get him to rethink his views. I'd be far less inclined to do so if that racist looked like a Nazi skinhead.

[Teallaura]

Jim, I will get back to you. I can't manage a long answer on my phone.

[Teallaura]

Adrift, quick point. If slavery is the main issue why is the Emancipation Proclamation dated 1863? The war began in 1861.

[KingsGambit]

Adrift, quick point. If slavery is the main issue why is the Emancipation Proclamation dated 1863? The war began in 1861.

South Carolina's 1860 declaration of secession makes pretty clear what they were seceding over.

[rogue06]

BINGO!!! NOT Slavery. The Confederacy. And the Confederacy was about far more than slavery. The way it is being treated, one would think that the war was only fought against the handful of white slave owners, and only over slavery.

That is a point that seems to get lost. There were an awful lot of people in the South who were opposed to slavery that fought for the Confederacy because they were fighting to defend their state and their country^[1]. For instance, most of your poor, small farmers didn't like it if for no other reason they saw it as giving a huge unfair advantage to plantation owners wrt having essentially a free labor force.













1. John Singleton Mosby, the famous "Gray Ghost" who commanded the 43rd Battalion, 1st Virginia Cavalry, known as "Mosby's Rangers" or "Mosby's Raiders," despite personally disapproving of slavery and believing that the South had seceded to protect it, explained in a 1907 letter why he fought to defend the Confederacy saying “I am not ashamed of having fought on the side of slavery – a soldier fights for his country – right or wrong – he is not responsible for the political merits of the course he fights in" and that "The South was my country.”

[shunyadragon]

The Stupid in Shuny's Post hurts.... so does the refusal to recognize detail. Omitting details is why liberals get their way. The omit it, put a stamp on it, people don't bother to research anything for themselves and blindly follow in ignorance.

Your omitting the details that the Confederacy battle flag is prominently a part of all Confederate Flags except the first national flag.