Lowering the Confederate Flag - and Wally World

[Cow Poke]

It's only slander if it's not true.

That reminds me of Mickiel always accusing us of slander - and that's exactly the point I made. If it's true, it's not slander.

[Cow Poke]

Not true!

Slander - .
the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

and
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/slander

n. oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed.

[shunyadragon]

You can't have it both ways - either the history of the nation represented by the flag denotes its meaning, or it can denote possible meaning - or not. If the former, your case against the battle flag works - but it also means the same case is true of the American flag. If the latter, your case against the battle flag is crap and the American flag has no issue for the same reason.

Make up your minds - one way or the other, it cannot be both.

Yes, the history of the nation clearer is represented in the flags. That is the Big Problem with the Confederate flag. The case against the American flag is first class slander. The Confederate States of America was based firmly on the preservation of slavery and racism. The United States was never based on these evil beliefs. The United States clearly evolved away from such beliefs, which were never the basis for the existence of the nation.

[JonathanL]

Not true!

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that my statement is false, or are you saying that the things said about the US flag is not true?

[shunyadragon]

Slander - .
the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.

and
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/slander

n. oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed.

Both are relevant to this case of slander and defamation of the character of the United States and it's flags. In this case it is the Nation not a person.

[Cow Poke]

Both are relevant to this case of slander and defamation of the character of the United States and it's flags. In this case it is the Nation not a person.

Ya know, I wish you weren't so obfuscationally challenged. You made it look like you were arguing about the definition of slander.

[shunyadragon]

Ya know, I wish you weren't so obfuscationally challenged. You made it look like you were arguing about the definition of slander.

No, I was arguing for it's application to this case, and yes it applies.

[Jaecp]

I don't know. I don't think I buy it. When, and if Americans feel just as strongly about the Stars and Stripes, and all that it symbolizes, then I agree we should question whether or not it's appropriate to fly it outside our state buildings. Public consensus hasn't come to that point yet (at least, not in this country).

Really, a number of things on that list simply don't register with people on the same level as slavery. Presumably the million of dead Iraqis was a good thing to help free a nation, and to help snuff out terrorism. Presumably the use of Agent Orange and the internment of Japanese-American citizens was done to save American lives in the midst of wartime. I imagine that there are plenty of people who could argue to this very day that the right (or at least, justifiable) thing was done in all three of those cases. I don't know anyone outside of extremists who would still argue that chattel slavery was a necessary evil, or that it was justified. The final one, "more black prisoners than black college students" just feels tacked on. What direct association does the American flag have to do with that? Little if any. The only legitimate issue raised looks like the genocide of the native tribes. Arguably, the American flag we have today is not the same one that was used to wipe out native tribes, but I think that would be a weak argument. I would not be surprised if Native Americans had no great love for the stars and stripes, and I think a public debate could be raised about that. Currently there isn't one, and there isn't the same association (again, for right or wrong) with Indian genocide to the Stars and Stripes as there is the Confederate flag to slavery. There simply isn't. Not yet anyways.

Part of the problem of this counter-argument, though, is that it kinda cuts both ways. If you truly think that an argument for the Confederate flag is, "the Stars and Stripes represent as much, if not more evil, and we're still okay with it", how far are you willing to go down that lane of thinking? Were the Americans wrong for famously blowing up the swastika atop the Tribune at ZeppelinFeld in Nuremberg? Would it be appropriate for people to wear images of the swastika on their shirts in public? Should it be?

Pedanticly, it isn't quite the same flag since we added numerous states (at the very least, 2 for alaska/hawaii) long after the various ethnic cleansing's were completed.

It really isn't comparable, which is why neither myself or Shuny were planning on touching it. There isn't much to gain from going over the picture RG keeps posting in detail. There is a helluva lot of a good attached the American flag in its what it's stood for. The confederate flags, by being short lived in their official capacity, are always going to have a much more focused set of symbolism attached to them.

edit:

I'd like to take a moment to reiterate that my primary objection to this flag is that its one of rebellion and treason to the United States. As a veteran, I don't see how I can support, even in theory, a flag raised in rebellion against the country I've sworn to protect.

[Adrift]

Pedanticly, it isn't quite the same flag since we added numerous states (at the very least, 2 for alaska/hawaii) long after the various ethnic cleansing's were completed.

Right. I mention that in my 2nd paragraph.

[Jaecp]

You didn't mention why it isn't the same Flag, though. Your statement could be interpreted either, pedanticaly, as it not being the same flag because we added a couple of stars or it could be interpreted figuratively as a different flag for a whole host of reasons. As in, say, the notion of the flag we have now having an extra hundred years of history attached to it than when those negative things happened to the natives.

[Adrift]

You didn't mention why it isn't the same Flag, though. Your statement could be interpreted either, pedanticaly, as it not being the same flag because we added a couple of stars or it could be interpreted figuratively as a different flag for a whole host of reasons. As in, say, the notion of the flag we have now having an extra hundred years of history attached to it than when those negative things happened to the natives.

I see. I meant the prior, but I can see how it could go either way.

[Jaecp]

I figured you did, although it's not the best argument since, as a symbol, minor cosmetic changes to the flag don't make the American Flag anything less than the American Flag. Symbolism is picked up over time and is largely a result of history. The argument against the stupid image RG keeps posting isn't to try to find a pedantic reason why it's not the flag that those problems happened under, nor is it to point out how some of the things on the list are invalid arguments for one reason or another, but to draw the contrast between the breadth of symbolism and history enjoyed by the US flag, both good and bad, over the last couple hundred years in active use compared to the four years of active use for the confederate flag. A mere four years of real use, it's a detail that we should all know, but it does some good to remind people of that here and there.

The reason for this is that you can always throw up more random bad things that the country did over the course of a quarter of a millennium, but when you shift it from "a list of a few bad things" to "take it as a whole" then there turns out to be a whole lot of good to go along with the bad of the US while the Confederate flags are still mostly symbolic of slavery (and states rights, of course, because the federal government was soon going to take away slavery, the south figured)

Although, I think the simplest argument, if you wanted to argue against it directly, would be to point out that those aren't the reasons for those flags creation and (tying back into my point regarding history) it's obvious that a country with a quarter millennium of history is going to have more things to put on a tally than a failed rebellion that couldn't manage half a decade.

[Adrift]

I figured you did, although it's not the best argument since, as a symbol, minor cosmetic changes to the flag don't make the American Flag anything less than the American Flag.

Yep. I mentioned that as well. "...but I think that would be a weak argument."

Symbolism is picked up over time and is largely a result of history. The argument against the stupid image RG keeps posting isn't to try to find a pedantic reason why it's not the flag that those problems happened under, nor is it to point out how some of the things on the list are invalid arguments for one reason or another, but to draw the contrast between the breadth of symbolism and history enjoyed by the US flag, both good and bad, over the last couple hundred years in active use compared to the four years of active use for the confederate flag. A mere four years of real use, it's a detail that we should all know, but it does some good to remind people of that here and there.

The reason for this is that you can always throw up more random bad things that the country did over the course of a quarter of a millennium, but when you shift it from "a list of a few bad things" to "take it as a whole" then there turns out to be a whole lot of good to go along with the bad of the US while the Confederate flags are still mostly symbolic of slavery (and states rights, of course, because the federal government was soon going to take away slavery, the south figured)

Although, I think the simplest argument, if you wanted to argue against it directly, would be to point out that those aren't the reasons for those flags creation and (tying back into my point regarding history) it's obvious that a country with a quarter millennium of history is going to have more things to put on a tally than a failed rebellion that couldn't manage half a decade.

Mmhm.

[Jaecp]

I'm not saying that to, like, challenge you. I'm just making sure my posts are complete as written if and when someone else responds to them. I'm being ever so slightly repetitive on purpose.

edit:

I mean, we both know that the only reason that the general "Attack dog" nature of this forum wasn't sicked on RG the second he insulted American in the stupid, overly broad fashion he used is because he's Christian. I don't have that particular luxury.

[Adrift]

I'm not saying that to, like, challenge you.

I didn't take it as a challenge. We're good.

I'm just making sure my posts are complete as written if and when someone else responds to them. I'm being ever so slightly repetitive on purpose.

Got it.